1 00:00:04,590 --> 00:00:11,760 Sustainability unwrapped a conversation new podcast about responsibility, ethics, inequalities, 2 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:22,320 climate change and other challenges of our times where science needs practise to think about evolve and how to make our society more sustainable. 3 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:30,020 One podcast at a time. Well, hi, everyone, my name is Catherine Oceanian. 4 00:00:30,020 --> 00:00:35,990 I'm a doctor and at the School of Economics at the Department of Commercial Law and currently 5 00:00:35,990 --> 00:00:41,720 I'm also a visiting researcher at Harvard Law School at the centre of the legal profession, 6 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:46,730 as well as at the University of Cambridge Law in the UK. 7 00:00:46,730 --> 00:00:54,470 What I'm doing currently is that I'm conducting empirical research on legal design and ethics in commercial contracts. 8 00:00:54,470 --> 00:01:04,790 And today on our podcast, I have three lovely ladies who is about to joining me to talk about legal design and sustainability and what 9 00:01:04,790 --> 00:01:11,840 are the great spaces that the use of technology can actually bring to the movements and the initiatives. 10 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:19,160 Just as access to justice, legal innovation and governmental sustainability projects. 11 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:25,940 So first, I have here we make apologies. Who is the founder of Gender View, a company? 12 00:01:25,940 --> 00:01:37,580 What is producing a legal design law in Beck and yoga, driven by a desire to infuse more empathy and innovation in the legal sector and beyond? 13 00:01:37,580 --> 00:01:46,610 A. Well, he is an international lawyer in Sweden with a law degree from HMRC on her second master from Strasbourg. 14 00:01:46,610 --> 00:01:50,930 And above that, she has Ella Lim from Stanford Law School. 15 00:01:50,930 --> 00:01:59,780 She has worked more than 10 years in Brussels as European Commission, as well as in a law firm and a soloist, 16 00:01:59,780 --> 00:02:04,080 and three years as a thick lawyer and the League of Hooters in Sweden. 17 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:09,350 So she has a lot of good background. You have a discussion with us today. 18 00:02:09,350 --> 00:02:14,510 And moreover, she's incredibly passionate about leadership, sustainability, 19 00:02:14,510 --> 00:02:21,890 personal growth, yoga and how to design your life for wealthy and the purpose. 20 00:02:21,890 --> 00:02:27,080 Second of all, the second level lady who I have here today is Mary Pottersville, 21 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:35,660 who is the founder and the CEO of famous Amaravati, a lethal innovation by design agency in France. 22 00:02:35,660 --> 00:02:43,280 She has worked previously as vice president of Licata EMEA at Estee Lauder Companies in Europe. 23 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:48,950 After three years and Illegal Manager Europe at Chanel. 24 00:02:48,950 --> 00:03:01,920 Moreover, she has been working as a private practise lawyer as she was working about 12 years or so at Freshfields Allen Overy Real Cars in Croatia. 25 00:03:01,920 --> 00:03:07,250 Eiza recalls in London, Brussels, Paris and Mexico City. 26 00:03:07,250 --> 00:03:10,430 Welcome, Mary. Great to have you on board. 27 00:03:10,430 --> 00:03:21,180 Last but definitely not least, I have your I is a bit real who is a lawyer and a project manager specialising in legal design. 28 00:03:21,180 --> 00:03:29,990 And after studying law in several jurisdictions, she has discovered legal system working in-house and quickly. 29 00:03:29,990 --> 00:03:42,470 She actually joined Marie. I'm a rookie in 2018, and she was working at MRP for three years and has been working as a project manager, 30 00:03:42,470 --> 00:03:51,570 and she's been involved for many, many, many legal design projects, more than 40 of them and training and conferences. 31 00:03:51,570 --> 00:04:01,190 And what is interesting is that she actually recently took a new role as a part of the French Government Open Data Innovation Programme, 32 00:04:01,190 --> 00:04:06,590 and I'm eager to learn more about that today where we discuss further. 33 00:04:06,590 --> 00:04:16,790 So, first of all, thank you already beforehand for sharing your views, ladies with us and legal design and the advantage of using technology. 34 00:04:16,790 --> 00:04:24,140 So going straight to the business? What kind of technologies we are talking about here? 35 00:04:24,140 --> 00:04:29,810 What is the thing with law and technology that everybody's so excited about? 36 00:04:29,810 --> 00:04:34,430 And how does this work? What do you think about that? Yeah, hi. 37 00:04:34,430 --> 00:04:41,420 First of all, thank you so much for having me. And yes, we are very excited about the legal tech. 38 00:04:41,420 --> 00:04:44,000 I think, put simply, we can say that legal tech, 39 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:51,920 it's all kind of technology that we use to simplify the work of lawyers or to solve legal problems, basically. 40 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:56,840 So there's a bunch of different things that you can do once you combine law and take. 41 00:04:56,840 --> 00:05:02,150 So, for example, you can find a lawyer, you know, like you find a pizza or a hairdresser, 42 00:05:02,150 --> 00:05:07,760 so can ask you a few questions online and then you get connected with the right lawyer. 43 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:12,440 In Sweden, there's a new initiative called Joystick that does just that. 44 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:18,770 And then there's the document or automation, where you can reply to questions about your situation. 45 00:05:18,770 --> 00:05:26,370 And then there's a software that just generates the contract. There are also legal research tools there. 46 00:05:26,370 --> 00:05:33,690 E-learning, you know, so you can teach your employees or yourself about GDP or money laundering, et cetera. 47 00:05:33,690 --> 00:05:42,780 There's online dispute resolution like a simpler way of solving problems if you have like a big online marketplace, for example. 48 00:05:42,780 --> 00:05:49,620 So there's actually a lot of different things, and I think it's exciting because things that have been really cumbersome before, 49 00:05:49,620 --> 00:05:58,650 like going through hundreds or thousands of documents, it's now made a lot more efficiently because the computer's able to pick out the tricky issues. 50 00:05:58,650 --> 00:06:05,730 So as a lawyer, you can just focus on the really interesting stuff and then the simple stuff is solved by the computer. 51 00:06:05,730 --> 00:06:12,570 But I think the more you know, the actual gold here is really about empowering individuals, 52 00:06:12,570 --> 00:06:18,550 you know, lowering costs, but also explaining the legal stuff, making it more accessible, really. 53 00:06:18,550 --> 00:06:23,070 So I think that's the juicy parts, the nice parts. 54 00:06:23,070 --> 00:06:29,940 Oh, thank you. That was really interesting. What about you, Mary? First of all, country, thanks a lot for having me as well. 55 00:06:29,940 --> 00:06:36,630 I'm very happy to share this conversation with Viveca, Elisabeth and yourself. 56 00:06:36,630 --> 00:06:42,390 So yes, indeed. As Vivek had just said, tech is indeed exciting, 57 00:06:42,390 --> 00:06:49,620 mostly because of the this feeling of the infinite of possibilities that it offers to the legal industry. 58 00:06:49,620 --> 00:06:59,370 Truth is that the legal arena had been relatively slow so far at challenging its own habits and processes. 59 00:06:59,370 --> 00:07:07,050 But this is now changing and it's been now at least, I would say, four or five years in Europe, 60 00:07:07,050 --> 00:07:16,320 at least that we've been seeing wider adoption of of legal tech and for the greater good. 61 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:24,210 So why is it interesting this combination of tech applied to the legal sector? 62 00:07:24,210 --> 00:07:31,200 Well, the legal industry is obviously characterised by a very large volume of complex documents. 63 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:36,600 Whether we're talking about case law acts, parliamentary debates, contracts, you name it. 64 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:46,680 And with this volume and this complexity comes a heavy workload, which is not always adding a lot of value to the pure legal reasoning. 65 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:54,720 As you've said, it can free up that the point is also to free up lawyers from from the not so adding value work. 66 00:07:54,720 --> 00:08:03,450 So in addition, finding the right information within this volume of documents and making sure you don't miss 67 00:08:03,450 --> 00:08:11,520 you don't even miss any key argument or document is a must for lawyers to quite logically, 68 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:17,910 take has gained ground in particular in terms of automation and legal research. 69 00:08:17,910 --> 00:08:20,790 But to be honest, catch we at Hammurabi. 70 00:08:20,790 --> 00:08:30,150 We also like to think that it's really innovation is really not just about gaining time and reducing human errors, 71 00:08:30,150 --> 00:08:34,700 but that's also about creating a satisfying user experience. 72 00:08:34,700 --> 00:08:45,060 And this is why while we embrace all the possibilities of tech, this shouldn't be the starting point in our view. 73 00:08:45,060 --> 00:08:52,830 And innovation should start with user centricity, really, but I'm sure we'll talk about that later on. 74 00:08:52,830 --> 00:08:54,440 Thank you. Very, really interesting. 75 00:08:54,440 --> 00:09:00,870 I totally agree with you on that, about the user centricity and the and the possibilities that they have to offer. 76 00:09:00,870 --> 00:09:06,600 What about you, Elizabeth? What do you think about this? Well, thank you so much for having me. 77 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:13,770 It's really an honour to be here amongst such famous women in the legal tech industry. 78 00:09:13,770 --> 00:09:18,840 I think in my perspective, which is very much aligned with what has been said, 79 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:30,060 is that not only legal tech is I think it's very necessary to align legal recommendation with the new business model, which is actually not so new. 80 00:09:30,060 --> 00:09:38,880 As Marie said, Legault has been a bit delayed in catching on the tech train, but the business had never actually took so much time. 81 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:48,480 So with digital being ever more present in our lives in general, the legal industry really cannot afford to not to align with these new practises. 82 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:53,550 So I think legal tech is very much, you know, a necessity at this point. 83 00:09:53,550 --> 00:09:58,920 It's also very interesting to look at it in the way it can democratise law. 84 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:03,220 So, for instance, the French regulation is very favourable to open data. 85 00:10:03,220 --> 00:10:11,610 Since 2016, they passed a bill that was very much, you know, forward looking in that realm that actually, 86 00:10:11,610 --> 00:10:17,460 you know, even though currently they're opening all the legal decisions rendered by tribunals in France. 87 00:10:17,460 --> 00:10:26,390 Having all this data is not enough. Lawyers can't, you know, download this year's V formats or an Excel table with all the data. 88 00:10:26,390 --> 00:10:30,830 They really need the tools to make it legible and to bring an added value, 89 00:10:30,830 --> 00:10:39,260 and I think this is where legal services really translate all the raw material into something valuable for lawyers. 90 00:10:39,260 --> 00:10:42,230 Maybe leveraging artificial intelligence, for instance, 91 00:10:42,230 --> 00:10:50,340 we're really creating certain legal services that are centred around tech to enable really everyone to truly exploit it to its maximum potential. 92 00:10:50,340 --> 00:10:58,730 Oh, that sounds really interesting. So maybe we will see even some kind of searching tools for these judicial documents in the future 93 00:10:58,730 --> 00:11:04,650 so lawyers can make service the things that they are needing to most and find them really fast, 94 00:11:04,650 --> 00:11:09,380 maybe using air or other means of technology. That sounds really interesting. 95 00:11:09,380 --> 00:11:14,390 I want to be all ears about these projects and how we do those in France. 96 00:11:14,390 --> 00:11:19,370 In France, you do a lot of these cutting edge things. Are leading the way. 97 00:11:19,370 --> 00:11:24,360 Thank you for that. Well, what do you think? What are the advantages that mean? 98 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:29,930 What have you encountered in your work when you have been using technology with illegal design? 99 00:11:29,930 --> 00:11:38,630 What do you think are the the benefits, the incentives to use vehicle design and technology together? 100 00:11:38,630 --> 00:11:50,210 Yes. Well, as as I'm sure your guest country as a legal innovation by design agency, our starting point is users not tech for the sake of tech. 101 00:11:50,210 --> 00:11:56,720 So we're focussing on uses what we want to know, what their needs are, what are the expectations, 102 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:05,990 pain points and how might we solve the user's pain points through the redesign of documents, our processes? 103 00:12:05,990 --> 00:12:13,370 So it's basically the question of how do we create the right interfaces between users and a 104 00:12:13,370 --> 00:12:21,890 task or a service so that once you've identified and prioritised your users pain points, 105 00:12:21,890 --> 00:12:29,150 tech can actually come as an additional tool to solve these pain points. 106 00:12:29,150 --> 00:12:38,510 It's an it's really an addition to the the variety of of solutions you can bring. 107 00:12:38,510 --> 00:12:42,920 If you look at contract automation, for example, what's the real problem? 108 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:51,710 Most people have been trained not to read. You know, there's a quite famous study by Berkeley a couple of years ago. 109 00:12:51,710 --> 00:12:53,480 We've been trained not to read. 110 00:12:53,480 --> 00:13:04,160 It's a bit of a shocking idea not to be fine print and and we've been trained to blind signed a blind sign agreements more often than not. 111 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:11,690 That's because of the combination of what fine print does to our brain and the quite authoritative 112 00:13:11,690 --> 00:13:18,680 tone that most contracts use that triggers the kind of automatic signal in our brain. 113 00:13:18,680 --> 00:13:25,430 OK, let's not waste any energy. It's not been designed to be read, so let's do something else. 114 00:13:25,430 --> 00:13:32,960 Instead, let's just take the books. This study is very, very interesting, by the way. 115 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:41,420 So the problem with, you know, if you're aware of this issue, share tech does not solve it. 116 00:13:41,420 --> 00:13:47,720 There are masses of automated contracts which certainly save a bit of time in the short 117 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:53,780 run because you can fill them in more rapidly and you can sign them electronically, 118 00:13:53,780 --> 00:14:00,780 for example. But they are still blindly signed, and that's very unlikely to be actually applied. 119 00:14:00,780 --> 00:14:04,790 So in practise, it does create additional risks. 120 00:14:04,790 --> 00:14:08,690 Instead of limiting risks, which should be the point of a contract. 121 00:14:08,690 --> 00:14:19,460 So leveraging legal design really enables us to identify and then solve the real problem, which is the user, the user's pain point. 122 00:14:19,460 --> 00:14:24,890 That's how we created what we like to call the first trust building agreement. 123 00:14:24,890 --> 00:14:31,040 We had done hundreds of hours of user research in various contract redesign projects 124 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:37,890 for various clients and in particular for NDAs for non disclosure agreements. 125 00:14:37,890 --> 00:14:49,520 The conclusion was particularly clear NDAs are a key touchpoint at a critical time in building a relationship between two companies. 126 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:56,180 And yet, most of them, most of the NDI is usually create just additional constraints and frustrations. 127 00:14:56,180 --> 00:14:58,430 You know you're trying to create trust. 128 00:14:58,430 --> 00:15:06,950 And then the first the first document that one party receives from the other is this horrible removal of text, whether it's digital or not. 129 00:15:06,950 --> 00:15:09,920 Honestly, the experience is just as bad. 130 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:19,400 So it's not ideal to start, you know, on good tracks, trusting each other and just collaborating with one another. 131 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:26,010 So right when what you need is building the foundations for a solid future relationship legal. 132 00:15:26,010 --> 00:15:31,170 Design enables to create this the satisfying experience. 133 00:15:31,170 --> 00:15:41,700 So we've we've created a digital India that ensures that both parties are really engaged and are confident about this 134 00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:50,190 new relationship and that each of them is prompted to trust the other one through transparency of the language, 135 00:15:50,190 --> 00:15:53,430 clarity and a satisfyingly good UX. 136 00:15:53,430 --> 00:16:04,530 So creating trust and reducing risks from a legal standpoint at the same time, that's in our view, the true value of combining legal design with tech. 137 00:16:04,530 --> 00:16:07,420 That's really interesting, Mary. I fully agree with you on that. 138 00:16:07,420 --> 00:16:13,560 So when we are applying legal design, we can definitely see more transparency, more clarity. 139 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:20,860 And as we know, the trust in creating the trust is there is the cornerstone of every relationship. 140 00:16:20,860 --> 00:16:28,830 And if we are not able to create the trust, maybe we are not able to expect really long run relationships, neither. 141 00:16:28,830 --> 00:16:36,630 So that's really interesting. I'm really, really glad to hear that you have done a digital MBA. 142 00:16:36,630 --> 00:16:46,950 How how was to actually work on that? Was it the long process to make this kind of a new kind of digital contract? 143 00:16:46,950 --> 00:16:54,810 It wasn't that long, actually. You know, Elizabeth and I found ourselves, I think it was at the beginning of the first confinement, to be honest. 144 00:16:54,810 --> 00:17:00,270 Well, the first in France. So that's back to April. 145 00:17:00,270 --> 00:17:11,080 I'm losing track of time. April last year. So we found ourselves with tons of raw materials from previous projects with clients. 146 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:15,990 We had done tons of user research and we had all this material and we were thinking, 147 00:17:15,990 --> 00:17:21,600 OK, each individual project for each given client is is completed. 148 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:28,650 That's great. But we've got all this user research that's really converging to tell us something. 149 00:17:28,650 --> 00:17:37,680 And how do we make the most of it for for a wider audience than just one client after the other? 150 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:43,440 And so we launched this project in April, and it is about maybe you can refresh my memory. 151 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:49,050 It took us, what, three months? Maybe yes, I would say three months to get the first prototype. 152 00:17:49,050 --> 00:17:57,090 And then of course, there was a lot of iteration process because we kindly asked our clients to test it for us. 153 00:17:57,090 --> 00:18:01,860 So that takes, you know, as long as you want because you can always iterate more, 154 00:18:01,860 --> 00:18:08,670 I think iterations that you just have to say, OK, this is good enough. 155 00:18:08,670 --> 00:18:14,930 But no, it was actually quite quite short. I agree with you. Surprisingly short, in fact. 156 00:18:14,930 --> 00:18:20,930 Yeah, that this really gets, you know, because I think that many of the audience might think of wow, 157 00:18:20,930 --> 00:18:28,070 legal design this that sounds fabulous, but what kind of cost we actually encouraged here? 158 00:18:28,070 --> 00:18:34,790 What does it cost to have all these really great, fabulous digital contracts that we are making? 159 00:18:34,790 --> 00:18:40,770 What what would you say like in general? Like, how would you, how would you how would you see that? 160 00:18:40,770 --> 00:18:47,450 What are the two entrance cost for changing from the, how would I say, 161 00:18:47,450 --> 00:18:56,090 the old fashioned way of contracting the this new great way of applying law and technology together? 162 00:18:56,090 --> 00:19:05,820 What would kind of cost where we can expect in here? I'm allowed to open the discussion with everybody, like what the customers can expect. 163 00:19:05,820 --> 00:19:10,470 I think the point by Mary and Elizabeth, it's interesting that the more you work on it, 164 00:19:10,470 --> 00:19:18,960 the more you just learn and collect data and get used to something new and then it gets easier and easier to find new solutions, I think. 165 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:25,410 I mean, I see it myself. There's no need to reinvent the wheel every time you do something. 166 00:19:25,410 --> 00:19:29,190 So maybe you need the whole process, like the formal legal design process, 167 00:19:29,190 --> 00:19:37,710 the first time you tackle a challenge and maybe the fourth time you you sort of know a bit more already, so you build on the experience. 168 00:19:37,710 --> 00:19:44,490 So I think I mean, we're still still a new sort of sector, and we're not that many people who work on it, 169 00:19:44,490 --> 00:19:52,200 but I think this project is a great example of how costs are continually decreasing. 170 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:59,310 Would you like to elaborate a little bit further that like companies who want to end their own legal design field, 171 00:19:59,310 --> 00:20:03,630 what kind of investments they need to do if they want to, let's say, 172 00:20:03,630 --> 00:20:09,640 renew their contracts based on their own NDAs, like looking at costs they might be facing? 173 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:17,200 How what would you think? Yeah, I think you should think of legal deciding like you can really be super ambitious with the process. 174 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:24,360 Like, I worked on a project where it's new and you have to like, really dig in and find the problem and, you know, through the whole process. 175 00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:32,760 But I think they're also like an informal version where you do something less ambitious, but with the help of your experience in the field. 176 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:37,680 And then I think for me, that has been like a way to engage people and it's like, 177 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:43,140 OK, let's do this first version, and let's not put the huge investment into this. 178 00:20:43,140 --> 00:20:48,900 But just as a taster like this is how it could look like just by doing something simple. 179 00:20:48,900 --> 00:20:55,590 I think, you know, in addition to cost, what really matters are the benefits, the KPIs, 180 00:20:55,590 --> 00:20:59,940 the efficiency that you gain, because as such, you know, you can state any amount. 181 00:20:59,940 --> 00:21:08,430 I could tell you 15 or 50 or why not, you know, one hundred and fifty k you, you can't. 182 00:21:08,430 --> 00:21:16,680 I mean, you can tell whether it's a lot or not, whether it's cheaper, expensive, whatever the amount is, 183 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:24,360 it's neither cheap or expensive until you've measured the value that you're creating with this redesign. 184 00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:31,800 So to be honest, it's really a matter of measuring very precisely KPIs. 185 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:41,790 And for example, we just had a very recent KPI not on our NDA, but with one of our recurring clients in the pharmaceutical industry. 186 00:21:41,790 --> 00:21:49,350 It's a fairly old contract redesign that we did back two years ago, I think. 187 00:21:49,350 --> 00:21:57,660 And they had never they had never shared with us the the KPIs and just incidentally talking about something they said, 188 00:21:57,660 --> 00:21:58,830 Oh, and by the way, you know what? 189 00:21:58,830 --> 00:22:09,460 This this partnership agreement that you redesigned two years ago, it decreased the negotiation time it divided the negotiation time by four. 190 00:22:09,460 --> 00:22:19,930 Wow. And we didn't know that really, oh, you know, how much I mean, what is the value you put on that? 191 00:22:19,930 --> 00:22:31,060 I'm sure you can measure it. You know, it's less and less people having to work on this negotiation, less business people, but also less lawyers. 192 00:22:31,060 --> 00:22:39,610 It's it's more trust, more business, more sales. I mean, the value is quite quite large, I think. 193 00:22:39,610 --> 00:22:46,420 I fully agree with you. And that is exactly what I'm doing with my research is to misread the impact of legal design. 194 00:22:46,420 --> 00:22:50,020 So that's really interesting. Your answer. 195 00:22:50,020 --> 00:23:00,650 That's why I was asking this question is that what we are facing through my work is that often the clients might be at the first place, 196 00:23:00,650 --> 00:23:08,240 a little bit hesitant about thinking like, Oh, we should chase all our contracts, should we renew all of them? 197 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:17,230 Oh, that might be expensive, huh? So I think people are always maybe at the they worry that, oh, it must cost a lot of money. 198 00:23:17,230 --> 00:23:22,090 What does it cost to do these things? So that's why I'm really happy that you put it on the table. 199 00:23:22,090 --> 00:23:26,500 The things that buy misery, the impact of design. 200 00:23:26,500 --> 00:23:33,790 You're actually able to show that even these costs that incur at the first stage of 201 00:23:33,790 --> 00:23:40,420 renewing are something that can be covered later on as the process goes further. 202 00:23:40,420 --> 00:23:48,700 And as the business goes further through these benefits that you can enquire into is saying save time, negotiate on the time, 203 00:23:48,700 --> 00:23:57,940 transaction costs and other means because I think it's important that all the talk about that, what does it cost to get on this trust? 204 00:23:57,940 --> 00:24:02,620 Because the track is really fascinating, combining legal design and technology. 205 00:24:02,620 --> 00:24:08,740 But as we know, there is always some input cost. But as Mary of us say really nicely, 206 00:24:08,740 --> 00:24:15,700 is that the benefits that we are expecting and we are seeing at the later stages are for 207 00:24:15,700 --> 00:24:22,450 sure to cover these entry costs when the when the process is done in the right way. 208 00:24:22,450 --> 00:24:25,090 Really interesting moment. What about you, Rebecca? 209 00:24:25,090 --> 00:24:32,470 What kind of advances have you encountered when you have been combining technology and legal design? 210 00:24:32,470 --> 00:24:39,460 Yeah, I think for me, it's mostly a question of really making sure that you're creating the right legal tech solutions. 211 00:24:39,460 --> 00:24:45,680 So by exploring beforehand, you know, if if this is really needed and then make sure people actually want to use it. 212 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:52,930 So I think it's easy to come up with a million like cool tech ideas and work on that. 213 00:24:52,930 --> 00:24:54,370 But will they actually make a difference? 214 00:24:54,370 --> 00:25:03,340 So I've been in workshops on legal design and people have been very, you know, obsessed with the idea they want to build. 215 00:25:03,340 --> 00:25:09,880 But once you start applying the legal design, maybe you discover that there's actually no need for this or it wouldn't be applied. 216 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,480 And so, you know, maybe you don't even want to go forward with it. 217 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:21,100 So I think it's easy to have like cool ideas, but the legal design just makes sure that it's worthwhile and that it's actually useful. 218 00:25:21,100 --> 00:25:29,770 And I also think once you apply tech to legal design, it's probably easier in most cases to track the way users use this tool. 219 00:25:29,770 --> 00:25:36,670 And then you can reiterate easier by, you know, looking at the data of, you know, how they use an app, for example. 220 00:25:36,670 --> 00:25:42,340 And then finally, of course, you know, if it's tech related in any way, it's easier to scale. 221 00:25:42,340 --> 00:25:49,210 So, you know, if you have something online or in an app, it usually becomes accessible to a lot of more people. 222 00:25:49,210 --> 00:25:54,910 And I remember, you know, I was working on this legal design project for the California Department of Justice, 223 00:25:54,910 --> 00:25:59,570 and that was an online project and for the whole state of California. 224 00:25:59,570 --> 00:26:05,770 So that's an example where, you know, I was really excited about the fact that this would actually reach a lot of people. 225 00:26:05,770 --> 00:26:12,100 So I think oftentimes there's a huge benefit to combining tech and legal design, 226 00:26:12,100 --> 00:26:15,980 but it's not at all the necessity that that's a really interesting point. 227 00:26:15,980 --> 00:26:26,080 And. I was I was thinking here that when when you are when you are having these workshops and in the projects, 228 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:30,400 what you have held for the customers, do you usually like? 229 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:38,650 Do you see things first plans on paper or do you try to go for the digital applications and try it in there? 230 00:26:38,650 --> 00:26:45,790 Because I think for our audience, it would be may be good to go a little bit deeper than how the process goes. 231 00:26:45,790 --> 00:26:52,930 So for example, when you are designing a new tool for a customer, do you usually have it, 232 00:26:52,930 --> 00:26:58,450 let's say, in a paper version and you prototype it with the end users? 233 00:26:58,450 --> 00:27:05,470 Or will you straight go to the digital tools and straight trade with the digital? 234 00:27:05,470 --> 00:27:15,760 That's a great question. I think, you know, the legal design process is a lot about doing things a bit fast and easy and not to like ambitious. 235 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:22,330 So if you build a whole digital tool as like, you know, as a prototype and tested on people, 236 00:27:22,330 --> 00:27:28,330 maybe you won't get the perfect feedback because it's already built and people are maybe polite if you ask them. 237 00:27:28,330 --> 00:27:32,840 And also, it's a huge cost to start building those things without knowing if it's worthwhile. 238 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:38,500 So if you do the paper version, you can just sit like in the workshop and go out and try 10 minutes. 239 00:27:38,500 --> 00:27:44,440 You don't want a random colleague or person in the street, and then you get the feedback really quickly before you continue to build on it. 240 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:50,160 So, yeah, I would go for the paper version. I'm going to put you out this with the very how you do. 241 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:55,730 You do it usually with the paper version. So how do you deal with the digital? 242 00:27:55,730 --> 00:28:06,680 Transformation, it really depends on project. I think, you know, if you're trying to test an interaction with users, 243 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:18,380 which eventually is going to be online at the testing phase, it's important to to mock up the online experience. 244 00:28:18,380 --> 00:28:26,420 So as Vivek has said, it's absolutely not worth to build the whole digital tool, but you can cheat. 245 00:28:26,420 --> 00:28:31,070 Basically, you can create the mock-up on Marvell, for example. 246 00:28:31,070 --> 00:28:36,200 And it's it's it pretends that it's interactive, actually, it's not, you know, 247 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:41,060 there's no code, it's just that you click on one screen and it takes you to the other screen. 248 00:28:41,060 --> 00:28:48,170 So it's cheating a bit. It's not a real digital tool, but it's good enough for the test. 249 00:28:48,170 --> 00:29:00,560 And you can also see, you know, you could I track what what people look at first and where they click first and you've got a great way, 250 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:08,900 a great range of tools to do that. So usually we would try to have at least a mock up on Marvell. 251 00:29:08,900 --> 00:29:14,420 That's like a fake interactive one, and we would test it during a workshop with users. 252 00:29:14,420 --> 00:29:22,460 We've done that very recently in September with a bunch of teenagers in the UK that was so interesting. 253 00:29:22,460 --> 00:29:31,040 They were between 13 and 17 years old and we had very quickly done the first screens. 254 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:38,480 It was a privacy policy in the video game industry and we had actually empowered them on a mural to 255 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:45,500 directly edit the screens and the mock-up so they could put little hearts or question marks or, 256 00:29:45,500 --> 00:29:51,620 you know, they could like draw by themselves digitally on on on the prototype. 257 00:29:51,620 --> 00:30:01,400 And it was great because it's not passive at all. And they gave us just brilliant feedback so that we could improve the prototype. 258 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,520 Oh, wow. That's just fascinating. Wow. What about you? 259 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:10,940 I was up, I was kind of advances have you encountered in technology and legal design? 260 00:30:10,940 --> 00:30:13,970 So I'm sorry. 261 00:30:13,970 --> 00:30:24,800 I think in my experience, my very recent experience is actually very interesting in the way design really brings forward the cultural aspect, 262 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:29,510 which can be a very like, high blocking factor with the legal tech. 263 00:30:29,510 --> 00:30:36,620 So for instance, if you're, you know, talking to people who don't have any use of tech and it's very clear that it could help them, 264 00:30:36,620 --> 00:30:39,950 but they're very fearful of what it might do. 265 00:30:39,950 --> 00:30:46,490 Some lawyers, for instance, are always afraid that they're going to be replaced, and so they're very reluctant. 266 00:30:46,490 --> 00:30:52,220 And I think the benefit of first prototyping early, as we just mentioned, 267 00:30:52,220 --> 00:30:57,410 enables them to get a very clear picture of what is actually going to be built. 268 00:30:57,410 --> 00:31:05,090 And so in the case of open data, for instance, if you talk about open data, it really brings up fear in people. 269 00:31:05,090 --> 00:31:09,900 You know, this Big Brother is watching you feeling it's quite uncomfortable. 270 00:31:09,900 --> 00:31:16,160 People don't know what you're going to be using it for, whereas if you prototype an interface very rapidly, 271 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:21,620 then they see the end product of it, and then it reassures them a lot. 272 00:31:21,620 --> 00:31:33,740 So I think the way to debunk fear and also bring on board people who might not be so used to this still new method of doing law, it's very important. 273 00:31:33,740 --> 00:31:41,090 The second aspect of this cultural, you know, this cultural importance and legal design project, 274 00:31:41,090 --> 00:31:47,900 I think, is also to really understand where people come from in terms of their use. 275 00:31:47,900 --> 00:31:55,970 So even if you have a very brilliant tech and you're not looking at the way people are currently using their tools, 276 00:31:55,970 --> 00:32:04,940 it might completely, you know, fall short because you haven't been paying attention to how you can make the switch. 277 00:32:04,940 --> 00:32:11,870 So that was one project we did at Mohadi that was actually very interesting with a topped up French legal publisher 278 00:32:11,870 --> 00:32:20,180 and the today have one of the top legal research tool most used in France with a huge database with everything in it. 279 00:32:20,180 --> 00:32:26,990 They're very famous, but really good. Research tools aren't always optimal yet. 280 00:32:26,990 --> 00:32:32,570 All lawyers use them, and they've been used to using them with their defaults, if that makes sense. 281 00:32:32,570 --> 00:32:37,970 And so they really wanted to bring forward a new method where you could just put in clear, 282 00:32:37,970 --> 00:32:45,440 in simple, not plain language, but in, you know, natural language, natural language, oral language. 283 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:52,880 The way you would just naturally speak, you could ask your questions. So can my employee leave the company without notice, for instance, 284 00:32:52,880 --> 00:33:02,180 instead of saying resignation of an unlimited duration contract, so you can just ask the question that applies to your situation. 285 00:33:02,180 --> 00:33:08,030 But in the way that we created this new interface with this new function that was quite new, 286 00:33:08,030 --> 00:33:13,370 we realised that we really needed to take into account the current use of keywords in legal terms. 287 00:33:13,370 --> 00:33:21,200 Because if you tell you lawyers today, you can just use your natural language here of all, they're not going to do it like instinctively. 288 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,550 They don't do that and then they don't really see the added value. 289 00:33:25,550 --> 00:33:32,390 And they also have a fear that it might not be legal enough or it might not be as serious that you might not get the same results, 290 00:33:32,390 --> 00:33:40,940 even though we're using the same end database. So it's really important to actually so we created a prototype that really resonated with that, 291 00:33:40,940 --> 00:33:45,050 bringing towards the logo because they know the legal publishers so well. 292 00:33:45,050 --> 00:33:49,910 Bringing forward help bubble with information, saying, OK, well, natural language is this, 293 00:33:49,910 --> 00:33:57,620 but you can also still use keywords, key legal terms if you want to sort of trying to make that switch. 294 00:33:57,620 --> 00:34:03,770 And if we had just, you know, brought forward kind of saying, this is the new solution, it's so much better. 295 00:34:03,770 --> 00:34:10,730 Use it. End of story. It probably would feel very much short as to what it's doing today. 296 00:34:10,730 --> 00:34:17,390 So I think this is really an aspect of legal design that is so key in developing legal tools. 297 00:34:17,390 --> 00:34:22,250 That makes sense is that it allows you to really understand the culture and create 298 00:34:22,250 --> 00:34:26,780 something that will resonate with users and also help them move their practise. 299 00:34:26,780 --> 00:34:34,850 Not just, you know, bringing forward another tool that they have to use, but something they really feel like they could adopt. 300 00:34:34,850 --> 00:34:42,770 That's cool, I love that story. So knowing the end user is actually the most crucial part in here to know where the people are coming from. 301 00:34:42,770 --> 00:34:46,430 That's really that sounds really interesting too, but I couldn't. 302 00:34:46,430 --> 00:34:52,620 We're all a bit confusing. So when you were talking about like natural language, do you do you mean like a natural language? 303 00:34:52,620 --> 00:34:59,150 Well, we have, for example, in the in quantum computing, no science like a natural language processing. 304 00:34:59,150 --> 00:35:06,440 Or does it mean like when you were talking about that, you have a certain keywords that you can use to church in June. 305 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:14,600 Do you look for certain cases? So does it mean more like like everyday language like we would maybe say, 306 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:23,060 like like a plain language like understandable language, its natural language as in the sentence you would use every day. 307 00:35:23,060 --> 00:35:29,660 So it's the same algorithm. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's the same algorithm as Google. 308 00:35:29,660 --> 00:35:36,470 So the same way you would say rest. What are the restaurants in Paris? 309 00:35:36,470 --> 00:35:44,420 The new restaurants open in Paris right now. You would put that in Google tool, then you would put the same type of legal question, of course. 310 00:35:44,420 --> 00:35:48,590 Not like random questions, legal related questions, but in that format. 311 00:35:48,590 --> 00:35:58,340 And I think the point was not just to address lawyers, but also maybe operationalise H.R. people who deal with law on an everyday basis. 312 00:35:58,340 --> 00:36:06,530 But they don't necessarily have the, you know, need to have such a heavy legal response. 313 00:36:06,530 --> 00:36:09,990 When they are searching, they want something that's actually quite operational. 314 00:36:09,990 --> 00:36:19,450 And so this was also the point to really make that more accessible to other sectors than just lawyers. 315 00:36:19,450 --> 00:36:25,330 That's really interesting, so it actually allows room for everybody, even not having a legal background. 316 00:36:25,330 --> 00:36:30,550 So the language, what you're using is everyday language, as you were recording to the Google, 317 00:36:30,550 --> 00:36:36,730 but maybe not this like a natural language processing that we have in the in the computer science. 318 00:36:36,730 --> 00:36:46,300 But wow, that's that's really interesting. Well, how about those and how do you see that the use of technology can improve and 319 00:36:46,300 --> 00:36:52,150 sustain sustainable development of law and order in the field of legal in general? 320 00:36:52,150 --> 00:36:59,640 And what kind of social impact you will see that this kind of approach can have? 321 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:06,900 I think it really resonates with what I was saying earlier about how you how having legal tools can help you scale, 322 00:37:06,900 --> 00:37:11,880 so it helps you diffuse the law within a company, for instance, much faster. 323 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:18,360 So for instance, if you're doing a, you know, an e-learning on complex legal topics such as competition law, 324 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:25,740 you can make them in a format that resonates with the digital mediums people are using today. 325 00:37:25,740 --> 00:37:29,580 So if, for instance, people are learning right now, they're learning through quizzes, 326 00:37:29,580 --> 00:37:38,130 documentary YouTube tutorials, you can use that format for more legal questions and maybe complex principles. 327 00:37:38,130 --> 00:37:45,090 But then it allows them to, you know, digest it in a way that they're used to and then to spread it out. 328 00:37:45,090 --> 00:37:52,680 And I think the impact of that is very much to develop a general culture law, which everyone should have. 329 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:58,860 But it's not always the case. And that's normal because not everyone can be a lawyer. 330 00:37:58,860 --> 00:38:03,300 But there are some legal rules that everyone should know in a company, for instance. 331 00:38:03,300 --> 00:38:09,210 And so having this mediums and these new formats that really resonate with your everyday life, 332 00:38:09,210 --> 00:38:14,190 I think really helps you apply it and spread it out in general, 333 00:38:14,190 --> 00:38:20,640 much beyond just one application, but really all throughout and sort of always have that idea in your head. 334 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:25,860 OK, I remember that, you know, I shouldn't be acting this way or when I talked to a competitor. 335 00:38:25,860 --> 00:38:32,820 I need to be very careful about this and that. And so when you're in a situation, you can actually leverage everything. 336 00:38:32,820 --> 00:38:39,420 Whereas of course, if you stay in the old fashioned way of, for instance, you know, 337 00:38:39,420 --> 00:38:44,730 learning about law, then it's going to be much more difficult to leverage it later on. 338 00:38:44,730 --> 00:38:49,650 And it's also more difficult to replicate it for a different area of law. 339 00:38:49,650 --> 00:38:55,170 For instance, whereas you have a very creative e-learning that is very well structured. 340 00:38:55,170 --> 00:39:03,240 And as I'm glad you did a lot of those, it would be much easier to have that full Eragon and going to me. 341 00:39:03,240 --> 00:39:08,490 I don't know if that's an English word, but if you have the set out that's already made. 342 00:39:08,490 --> 00:39:12,840 Then you can replicate the methods on another topic more easily. 343 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:18,120 So I think this is very much the impact that I see is infusing law all throughout 344 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:22,770 and maybe making sure that law doesn't stay with lawyers so much as it does today. 345 00:39:22,770 --> 00:39:30,540 And you don't need to be an expert to apply law and a more general level, of course, and more expert level you do. 346 00:39:30,540 --> 00:39:39,030 But I think this is why leveraging technology really simply makes sense because it's a necessary component in legal services today. 347 00:39:39,030 --> 00:39:43,830 Well, thank you. Elizabeth, what about you, Larry? What kind of impact do you see here? 348 00:39:43,830 --> 00:39:51,870 Well, we're very much focussed on how might we create a systemic impact? 349 00:39:51,870 --> 00:39:59,160 You know, Margaret Hagan at Stanford prompted all legal designers back in 2019, I think, 350 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:05,490 at the Legal Design Summit in Helsinki to try to reach that systemic impact way beyond, 351 00:40:05,490 --> 00:40:10,380 you know, the outcome of one given project for one given client, which is already great. 352 00:40:10,380 --> 00:40:21,390 But how can we maximise that? And our take on this is that combining legal design with tech is an amazing tool 353 00:40:21,390 --> 00:40:28,350 to improve access to justice and more particularly to help empowering citizens, 354 00:40:28,350 --> 00:40:38,730 making it way more informed choices online in particular, and this better exercise exercising their rights online. 355 00:40:38,730 --> 00:40:48,570 You know, the digitalisation of our lives and the data economy has come with great advantages, 356 00:40:48,570 --> 00:40:54,450 great benefits, but also with terrible drawbacks in terms of blind signing. 357 00:40:54,450 --> 00:41:01,680 We've all, you know, tick the box, whether it's privacy policies, terms of use, you name it. 358 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,260 And we've been used to doing that. 359 00:41:04,260 --> 00:41:17,340 And I think it's now time to see tech as an empowerment to not blind sign, but precisely regain control over our personal data, 360 00:41:17,340 --> 00:41:29,280 our lives and the way we use digital services, and that this is where the combination makes a lot of sense. 361 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:35,580 It's not tech for the sake of tech, which might have been the case previously. 362 00:41:35,580 --> 00:41:39,420 Hence, the blind signing. And it's really more about empowering citizens. 363 00:41:39,420 --> 00:41:50,040 So just to give you a practical example. We are lucky to be chosen by the French Data Protection Authority last year to create model 364 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:58,520 interfaces for children and teenagers that would empower them to better understand their. 365 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:03,140 Right, but more importantly, to really exercise them. 366 00:42:03,140 --> 00:42:17,990 And so, for example, we developed a very low tech, by the way, tools to make them understand very complex concepts like targeted advertising. 367 00:42:17,990 --> 00:42:26,270 For example, you know, it's complex even for adults. The fact that you are the product and it's not a very pleasant idea, either. 368 00:42:26,270 --> 00:42:32,240 So we've used legal design, especially storytelling, 369 00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:45,080 to make very young children like eight years old understand what this concept is and then with made that widely available thanks to digital. 370 00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:55,590 So thanks to a bit of tech in by integrating this explanation within a digital interface, that's really interesting. 371 00:42:55,590 --> 00:43:02,420 You have been on so many different kind of prototypes that I think especially with this one where the concerns children, 372 00:43:02,420 --> 00:43:11,990 I think that really has a crazy bag, and that is a way for us to also secure the use of technology that is in good hands. 373 00:43:11,990 --> 00:43:16,040 And it's it's been used in a proper way and for better use. 374 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:20,480 So I think this this project is really interesting what you have in the game industry. 375 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:27,530 What about you, Rebecca? But what kind of connexion you see here for the sustainability and the benefits? 376 00:43:27,530 --> 00:43:33,680 Yeah, I thought of, you know, how law has become increasingly complex. 377 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:39,080 You know, we were operating in several countries. There are more requirements in all kinds of fields. 378 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:46,130 And I think companies and public authorities, you know, they struggle to understand the legal framework they're operating in. 379 00:43:46,130 --> 00:43:51,980 So, you know, sometimes they even give up, I think, or, you know, 380 00:43:51,980 --> 00:43:57,590 it's just sometimes impossible to actually know all the rules that you you have to comply with. 381 00:43:57,590 --> 00:44:04,440 And so I think, you know, what's the point of all these laws if we don't understand them and the companies don't really comply with them? 382 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,880 So, you know, we're not protected by the paper product. 383 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:16,220 And so for me, legal design has always been, you know, if you're doing a privacy policy targeted to the users, 384 00:44:16,220 --> 00:44:24,380 it's still like half my goal is still to educate the company and like make the CEO aware of these issues and really understand them. 385 00:44:24,380 --> 00:44:30,320 Because if the company itself doesn't really understand the issues, then how can they implement it? 386 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:39,050 So it's it's really both sides, and I think it's legal to sign could really do something amazing in this field by making, you know, 387 00:44:39,050 --> 00:44:47,060 by making the companies more in charge of what they actually have to do and how so not only for us as individuals, 388 00:44:47,060 --> 00:44:51,600 but really making the companies more aware. So I think. 389 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:56,400 Yeah, that's something really important, I think. I fully agree with you. 390 00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,250 But he left with Natalie, as you might have any, 391 00:44:59,250 --> 00:45:07,380 and he calls for the further actions for combining well and take and especially the first with legal design here. 392 00:45:07,380 --> 00:45:12,750 Yeah, but you were right. Yeah, this is my favourite question. 393 00:45:12,750 --> 00:45:17,700 No, I think if you've listened to this, you know and you think this makes sense, like legal design makes sense, 394 00:45:17,700 --> 00:45:22,950 I think, you know, join the movement and make sure that your company actually uses these tools. 395 00:45:22,950 --> 00:45:35,330 And I think it will like we talked about trust. Also, the worth in terms of economic benefits, there are so many benefits with legal design. 396 00:45:35,330 --> 00:45:40,350 So I think, you know, this is a movement and it's starting and I think, yeah, join it. 397 00:45:40,350 --> 00:45:48,010 And also, I was thinking like the GDPR, which is really like the prime example of something incomprehensible to a lot of people. 398 00:45:48,010 --> 00:45:55,440 You know, imagine if the four of us would have been in the draughting team of the GDPR, you know, we would have avoided a lot of headaches. 399 00:45:55,440 --> 00:46:00,630 So that's a call for action. Invite us to the next draughting Ralph. 400 00:46:00,630 --> 00:46:09,620 How about you, Marie Pro-4X and. Well, if you had told it, you know, I absolutely love this idea. 401 00:46:09,620 --> 00:46:16,730 I'm part of the B team. Definitely. 402 00:46:16,730 --> 00:46:21,840 We might have to twist in a way to bid for that. But you know what? 403 00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:30,470 We're currently preparing a conference on legal innovation in Paris in November with a large number of legal tech agencies, 404 00:46:30,470 --> 00:46:33,350 legal innovation agencies, et cetera. 405 00:46:33,350 --> 00:46:49,370 And I recently heard about judges in Belgium now draughting their judgements in plain language and making it accessible digitally as well. 406 00:46:49,370 --> 00:46:54,290 So you know what is? How amazing is that, quite frankly. 407 00:46:54,290 --> 00:47:02,960 This is really the way forward. Imagine if all the judgements that you can actually find online currently where you know, 408 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:08,720 in plain language or with a like a summary of key points made by the judges themselves. 409 00:47:08,720 --> 00:47:14,360 So less room for interpretation as well that might trigger other legal issues. 410 00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:19,340 But it's still I mean, we're living such exciting times. 411 00:47:19,340 --> 00:47:24,290 I think my call for action is is just a make make the first step. 412 00:47:24,290 --> 00:47:30,560 If you haven't already and just joined the movement, follow the example that you gave from the Belgium cause. 413 00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:32,150 That's incredible. 414 00:47:32,150 --> 00:47:40,460 Do you know if they chose to look, you go there or how they ended, like having the cars actually doing their verdicts in plain language? 415 00:47:40,460 --> 00:47:43,370 Do you have any further information on that? 416 00:47:43,370 --> 00:47:52,760 I don't know about Belgium specifically, but for example, if you take France, there's actually a constitutional principle which is not new, 417 00:47:52,760 --> 00:48:04,880 which dates back to 1999, and that states that there's a constitutional principle of clarity of the law. 418 00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:15,410 So, you know, it's there. I think with we might have been maybe less sensitive to it or or blind to it for a number of reasons. 419 00:48:15,410 --> 00:48:21,260 But it's there. It's part of our legal framework and it's been part of our legal framework for a long time. 420 00:48:21,260 --> 00:48:32,360 What's happening now that maybe we're rediscovering that law should be clear, but it should intrinsically fundamentally be clear, and it's there. 421 00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:38,000 I think we have all the legal basis that we need to to make law clearer. 422 00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:45,200 And as I as I used to, I like to say, you know, I've been practising law for now 20 years or so. 423 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:53,450 I don't know of any law or any regulation which imposes to be incomprehensible. 424 00:48:53,450 --> 00:49:00,890 I don't, but I know about Article 12 of GDP to come back to the various point which, 425 00:49:00,890 --> 00:49:08,120 you know, obliges you to provide information to collect consent in a clear way. 426 00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:14,300 It's there in the bloody text, so there's no need for additional legal basis. 427 00:49:14,300 --> 00:49:25,460 It's there. I think the point is more lawyers realising what it means and getting the necessary skills to put it into practise. 428 00:49:25,460 --> 00:49:35,530 Totally. That's really true, and all our Finnish speaking listeners, we actually have the same restriction as well in Finland, for example, 429 00:49:35,530 --> 00:49:44,920 we call it who get involved so we can actually find all these same principles and little clauses in our legislation as well. 430 00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:50,410 It can be the administrative law that everybody should be able to understand what they are reading. 431 00:49:50,410 --> 00:49:55,540 So we actually have it also in the Scandinavian judicial family. 432 00:49:55,540 --> 00:50:01,240 I'm sure you have the same in Sweden because our histories are crazily connected. 433 00:50:01,240 --> 00:50:08,080 Yeah, actually, I studied legal education in France and I came to think about Could Napoleon, which is, 434 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:13,330 you know, Napoleon who who actually tried to simplify the whole thing and put it into one clear text. 435 00:50:13,330 --> 00:50:19,620 So maybe he was a legal designer back then? 436 00:50:19,620 --> 00:50:26,310 Well, we'll always have a words lost without delays. What kind of goals you have for the future calls for action. 437 00:50:26,310 --> 00:50:32,640 I think there are two very differently reasonable a call for action. 438 00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:39,330 So the most reasonable one, I think, is to really encourage legal practitioners in general to be very curious. 439 00:50:39,330 --> 00:50:49,730 And as Marie said, developing new skills beyond just your core legal skills, which are so important and it's not about spending less time on your, 440 00:50:49,730 --> 00:50:59,670 you know, legal background, but it's more about seeing the benefits of having other skills that will really enlighten actually your legal skills. 441 00:50:59,670 --> 00:51:07,710 So things like, of course, design thinking, this is the topic of discussion today, understanding tech, their requirements and needs. 442 00:51:07,710 --> 00:51:11,640 So just understanding the language around tech, I think, 443 00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:18,900 is a mission that takes a bit of time but is very worth it because they feel like oftentimes the shortfalls 444 00:51:18,900 --> 00:51:25,830 of collaboration between lawyers in tech is that everyone in their own sphere is a very much an expert. 445 00:51:25,830 --> 00:51:32,100 So you have tech experts and legal experts in the field scared by the expertise of the other. 446 00:51:32,100 --> 00:51:38,400 And so it's a shame because there's so much to do, and it's also about finding a common language. 447 00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,770 So I think that's very important. 448 00:51:40,770 --> 00:51:50,610 So, you know, talk to your like, you know, any informatics team about maybe they can do a training that's not just about, 449 00:51:50,610 --> 00:51:59,250 you know, the the safety trainings that you usually get, but more about how does it work and why it works that way. 450 00:51:59,250 --> 00:52:00,390 I think, of course, 451 00:52:00,390 --> 00:52:11,670 project management is key in the way you run your legal team and the legal recommendations you provide seeing them as part of a much wider 452 00:52:11,670 --> 00:52:21,690 project and being very much involved within the project and not just giving a legal recommendation at a at the moment where you're solicited, 453 00:52:21,690 --> 00:52:27,180 but trying to get as much info as you can and be very much an integral part of the project team. 454 00:52:27,180 --> 00:52:32,970 That's not often. Sometimes that's difficult, not because of lawyers, but if you can, that's great. 455 00:52:32,970 --> 00:52:44,190 And then I think the less reasonable I mean, this will take, I think, a longer time, but it really stems from the people who are making the law. 456 00:52:44,190 --> 00:52:48,660 And so I think the way not just judges, but even before that, 457 00:52:48,660 --> 00:52:54,570 I think judges are interpreting a law that's already very complex and then lawyers 458 00:52:54,570 --> 00:53:00,570 interpret what judges say and then people try to understand what their lawyers are saying. 459 00:53:00,570 --> 00:53:05,940 So I think if you go to the very root of that, then of course, that would be much better for everyone. 460 00:53:05,940 --> 00:53:10,230 But I think this will take a little while. 461 00:53:10,230 --> 00:53:21,570 I'm very hopeful, though, because French government, for instance, has very much embedded design in many ways, and that took, you know, a few years. 462 00:53:21,570 --> 00:53:28,620 But now they know a lot of methodology, design related methodology and apply it. 463 00:53:28,620 --> 00:53:32,400 So, you know, legal design is probably the next step, and it will come. 464 00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:43,180 It's just a matter of pushing those boundaries. And, you know, draughting law in a legal design way would be the ultimate goal, I think. 465 00:53:43,180 --> 00:53:48,100 So it feels that everything actually comes down for collaboration. 466 00:53:48,100 --> 00:53:56,010 It seems that the collaboration in the inter-disciplinary is very sticky for %X as we think combining law. 467 00:53:56,010 --> 00:54:01,710 Technology and legal design approach. Well, thank you so much. 468 00:54:01,710 --> 00:54:06,090 I actually still have one really tiny question about the future. 469 00:54:06,090 --> 00:54:11,550 Do you guys think that in the future we might see old contracts in the digital form? 470 00:54:11,550 --> 00:54:20,420 Do you think that we will still see more paper forms or will take a lawsuit path, take the chance in the future? 471 00:54:20,420 --> 00:54:26,360 Digital, for sure. Yeah. I'm already like, what's the point of having it in paper? 472 00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:32,290 Yeah, once you've tried it. I mean, there's no there's no going back. 473 00:54:32,290 --> 00:54:36,970 And also, it saves the environment, which is, you know. Yeah. 474 00:54:36,970 --> 00:54:44,140 I love how we are in each quest. It's like, No, that's excellent. 475 00:54:44,140 --> 00:54:48,040 That's your Elizabeth worth of sustainability, as you can hear. 476 00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:52,900 So yes, it definitely does save the environment, but we are not having so much sprinting. 477 00:54:52,900 --> 00:54:56,590 Well, thank you, lovely ladies, for sharing your views today. 478 00:54:56,590 --> 00:55:08,410 Illegal design, technology and sustainability. And I definitely share the same tree with you and never will see a designed to be the more mainstream. 479 00:55:08,410 --> 00:55:15,140 It is enough that already, of course. So I hope that we can have a chance to talk to you soon. 480 00:55:15,140 --> 00:55:21,290 Until then, thank you so much and have a really great rest of the day. 481 00:55:21,290 --> 00:55:45,408 Thank you so much. Thank you.