1 00:00:04,590 --> 00:00:11,760 Sustainability unwrapped a conversation podcast about responsibility, ethics, inequalities, 2 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:22,320 climate change and other challenges of our times where science needs practise to think about who was and how to make our society more sustainable. 3 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:33,260 One podcast at a time. Hello and welcome everybody to this sustainability unwrapped podcast episode. 4 00:00:33,260 --> 00:00:42,030 Today, our topic is sustainable water governance, a very broad topic which has many, many perspectives to it. 5 00:00:42,030 --> 00:00:56,600 And a recently and especially in many media outlets, there has been a very strong and kind of sensational narratives about the global water crisis. 6 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:04,430 It talks a lot about the kind of scarcity of water at global scale, 7 00:01:04,430 --> 00:01:13,850 water stress and other types of physical material phenomena related to to a lack of water. 8 00:01:13,850 --> 00:01:22,880 In today's episode, we we want to provide a little bit different perspectives to this mainstream narrative, 9 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:30,170 and we want to look at it from a bit more critical perspectives in a sense that we want 10 00:01:30,170 --> 00:01:34,880 to question the narrative that there is very little water on this on this planet. 11 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:41,840 It is statistically measured that it's around less than one percent of this planet's the 12 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:48,050 water resources that are actually in in the form that can be used for for drinking purposes, 13 00:01:48,050 --> 00:01:58,790 agricultural or industrial uses. The rest of the water is is is in selling forms or it's stored in glaciers or in other forms. 14 00:01:58,790 --> 00:02:06,500 But our starting point is is that this so-called water crisis is more about uneven distribution 15 00:02:06,500 --> 00:02:14,600 of water and the lack of access which is provided for people to to have water available. 16 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:23,900 In other words, we are more focussed on the kind of water governance mechanisms that are used for distributing water. 17 00:02:23,900 --> 00:02:29,870 And today, with me, I'm happy to have two two fascinating guests. 18 00:02:29,870 --> 00:02:31,950 We have Jessica Bubbs, 19 00:02:31,950 --> 00:02:41,150 who is an associate professor in geography and international development at the University of East Anglia in the United Kingdom. 20 00:02:41,150 --> 00:02:50,390 And her research has examined the relationship between economic change and environmental governance and processes of development, 21 00:02:50,390 --> 00:02:54,230 with a special focus on water sector in Latin America. 22 00:02:54,230 --> 00:02:57,620 As the second guest we have here, Mira Taccone, 23 00:02:57,620 --> 00:03:07,820 who is a postdoctoral research fellow at the University Institute for Advanced Study and her research on the 24 00:03:07,820 --> 00:03:15,650 political ecology and environmental and government governance and infrastructure politics around the Mekong region. 25 00:03:15,650 --> 00:03:21,710 But we will hear more about both of their research during our our discussion. 26 00:03:21,710 --> 00:03:31,940 And my name is Linda the This Fire and I'm a postdoctoral researcher at the School of Economics at the Centre for Corporate Responsibility, 27 00:03:31,940 --> 00:03:39,020 and my research has focussed on the small scale technologies, innovations and drinking water governance in India. 28 00:03:39,020 --> 00:03:46,370 So I mentioned this narratives of water challenges and water crisis. 29 00:03:46,370 --> 00:03:53,630 We often hear that climate change is mobilised as a cause for water scarcity. 30 00:03:53,630 --> 00:03:58,760 How is climate change connected with your research, Jessica? 31 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,970 Thank you, Linda. In relation to climate change, 32 00:04:01,970 --> 00:04:14,060 the dominant narrative is that climate change is responsible for the mean changes and in particular scarcity of water around the globe. 33 00:04:14,060 --> 00:04:17,810 And while there's, of course, some truth in this, 34 00:04:17,810 --> 00:04:30,770 what tends to get neglected in this narrative is the role that human uses play in making resources scarce, especially for some social groups. 35 00:04:30,770 --> 00:04:36,770 So some of my work has looked at the expansion of major industries in some Latin American countries, 36 00:04:36,770 --> 00:04:46,190 such as the mining sector in Peru and the agriculture industry in Chile, and how they have caused much more extraction of water. 37 00:04:46,190 --> 00:04:50,870 And that has caused scarcity, which is completely independent of climate change. 38 00:04:50,870 --> 00:05:04,280 I think Jessica was put in this very, very, very nicely that it's I've also had a very similar observation or view that that often. 39 00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:12,500 Of course, it's true that that climate change effects, they materialised mostly through water. 40 00:05:12,500 --> 00:05:17,700 So they're either too much water as in floods or too little water and as in droughts. 41 00:05:17,700 --> 00:05:25,680 But but but often these floods and droughts are not only kind of climate climate events, but there are many. 42 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:35,910 Decisions have been done in either prior or they are ongoing decisions related to how water is being controlled and and on government. 43 00:05:35,910 --> 00:05:44,110 And and often there are many of these ways of controlling water are often taking very infrastructural form. 44 00:05:44,110 --> 00:05:50,250 So in many cases, these floods or droughts are not only like climate events, 45 00:05:50,250 --> 00:06:01,440 but they are also kind of infrastructural events because they are mediated through through decisions on how, how we how we govern and control water. 46 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:10,830 And and I've I've also noticed some somewhat that sometimes the climate frames can be also 47 00:06:10,830 --> 00:06:16,920 problematic in the sense that often climate this kind of climate scientists approach 48 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:24,900 as a kind of external shock and when when that attention is not paid so much to how 49 00:06:24,900 --> 00:06:31,020 people are are made vulnerable differentially or how vulnerability is differentiated. 50 00:06:31,020 --> 00:06:36,690 So then also this kind of climate responses often overlook. 51 00:06:36,690 --> 00:06:41,070 These are these different patterns of vulnerability and how how, for example, 52 00:06:41,070 --> 00:06:46,920 certain water infrastructures as well may, may make maybe some grid secure. 53 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:57,120 But but others are more insecure. So, so there is, you know, in a way this this the way climate, this is made governable. 54 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:59,970 In a way it's it's often very infrastructural, 55 00:06:59,970 --> 00:07:10,770 and it has created space for for large scale water infrastructure in terms of large dams and in terms of large scale irrigation structures. 56 00:07:10,770 --> 00:07:13,980 And not all of them, of course, are are problematic. 57 00:07:13,980 --> 00:07:24,180 But some of them may in a way interplay with climate change in problematic ways, creating also new vulnerability. 58 00:07:24,180 --> 00:07:27,720 This kind of linkage between climate and water is, of course, 59 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:37,590 hydropower and the ways how we expect that we can you know where to replace our fossil fuel energy with renewable energy. 60 00:07:37,590 --> 00:07:43,650 And currently, 80 percent of renewable energy is produced by hydropower, 61 00:07:43,650 --> 00:07:56,640 and there are estimates that that the hydropower capacity is going to be doubling or increased even by 70 percent in in in the next couple of decades. 62 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:04,200 And of course, this has huge implications in in riverine environments and already reversing the world. 63 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:10,200 It's almost like 50 percent of the river volume is affected by, by by dams. 64 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:15,360 But this this figure will be increased even up to 90 percent. 65 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:28,320 So it's it's a huge, huge change in in in how we relate with with rivers and and and there are three kind of hotspot areas, 66 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:38,790 especially Amazon and Congo and Mekong, which are also this river in environments with one of the largest inland fisheries in the world, for example. 67 00:08:38,790 --> 00:08:45,840 And and one of the key problem with that with the dams is that that they they affect this 68 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:51,370 or they are very detrimental precisely to fisheries and and also to the biodiversity. 69 00:08:51,370 --> 00:09:00,450 So we have here of a conflict almost between climate objectives and biodiversity objectives with hydropower. 70 00:09:00,450 --> 00:09:10,920 And I saw was mentioning so Mekong Region is one of the regions where hydropower is now built very intensively, 71 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:24,000 and that's the region where I have been doing my work. And I mean, in the 90s, Mekong was still one of the least built major rivers in the world. 72 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:35,940 Mekong is the eighth largest river in the world, but now they are around two hundred two large dams at different stages of development. 73 00:09:35,940 --> 00:09:40,890 Some of them plant built already, and some of them still plant. 74 00:09:40,890 --> 00:09:53,040 But this is this is really causing major changes in the entire hydro ecology sun and and also in the livelihoods. 75 00:09:53,040 --> 00:10:00,390 There are millions of people dependent on fish who are engaged in fish in fishing and some of them full time. 76 00:10:00,390 --> 00:10:09,330 Some of our time are decent fisheries. And so, as I was saying, so Mekong is one of the richest inland fisheries in the world. 77 00:10:09,330 --> 00:10:18,090 It's also one of the richest rice agriculture areas and and this this damming of of Mekong through mainstream and tributary dams. 78 00:10:18,090 --> 00:10:25,710 So it it has really huge livelihood, livelihoods and food security. 79 00:10:25,710 --> 00:10:31,380 Implications in the region. So, so this is one one example. 80 00:10:31,380 --> 00:10:41,790 And and the way is how the dams are are being justified then are very much through climate change arguments. 81 00:10:41,790 --> 00:10:51,250 But we can go then later, maybe into more detail. I guess I think if I understood what, Jessica, what you have worked on earlier, I mean, 82 00:10:51,250 --> 00:10:56,520 there is a very interesting case in this that how how droughts and floods that they are partly, 83 00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:00,630 of course, they can be augmented and they will be amended through climate change. 84 00:11:00,630 --> 00:11:07,950 But then often there are other other things that actually are also contributing to floods and droughts. 85 00:11:07,950 --> 00:11:15,960 So I think the examples from the Andean Andean region and reverse there are are quite 86 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:22,470 they illustrate quite nicely how how water scarcity actually is often produced. 87 00:11:22,470 --> 00:11:27,780 Also, it's not only a matter of climate change, but many other things as well. 88 00:11:27,780 --> 00:11:28,140 Yes, 89 00:11:28,140 --> 00:11:38,550 I think I think the and in case is quite important because the economies in South America are very dependent on export markets and to a large extent, 90 00:11:38,550 --> 00:11:46,410 on natural commodities. So things like metals, agricultural produce, timber, et cetera. 91 00:11:46,410 --> 00:11:50,160 And all of those industries require large amounts of water. 92 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:55,320 But because it's also the Andean region where you so you have the Andes, mountains and glaciers, 93 00:11:55,320 --> 00:12:00,900 the narrative of climate changes is very strong because of the impact on glacier melt. 94 00:12:00,900 --> 00:12:07,410 So that tends to dominate the the analysis of, you know, why there's water scarcity. 95 00:12:07,410 --> 00:12:15,870 And in Chile, for example, I've worked for many years. There's a phenomenon since around 2010 that's referred to as the mega drought, 96 00:12:15,870 --> 00:12:23,280 where water scarcity has affected the whole country or most of the country with serious effects for industries, 97 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:28,380 but also for local populations accessing drinking water. 98 00:12:28,380 --> 00:12:34,470 And of course, what's really dominant in this narrative is climate change and its effects on the Andes. 99 00:12:34,470 --> 00:12:39,210 But that totally ignores the role of some of these major industries that are producing 100 00:12:39,210 --> 00:12:46,920 Chile's and other country's key export commodities in worsening that situation. 101 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:54,210 And to the extent that I would say that those industries are possibly more responsible for the 102 00:12:54,210 --> 00:13:01,320 production of scarcity than the than climate change is kind of a weather as a climatic phenomenon. 103 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:10,650 And then the other side of it. So I've talked there a little bit about the causes of water scarcity in South American countries. 104 00:13:10,650 --> 00:13:20,130 But then the other side of it is that the same narrative very much dominates the responses to perceived water scarcity. 105 00:13:20,130 --> 00:13:31,380 So if I just give one example from northern Chile, of which much is covered by the Atacama Desert, which is one of the most arid places on Earth, 106 00:13:31,380 --> 00:13:38,130 one of the key responses to climate change is the construction of a series of desalination plants along the coast, 107 00:13:38,130 --> 00:13:49,800 where the idea is to take water from the sea and to purify that into water that can be used for industry but also drinking water, 108 00:13:49,800 --> 00:14:01,020 and which has the advantage of being independent of precipitation and using abundant water from the sea. 109 00:14:01,020 --> 00:14:06,990 But these desalination plants, while they solve the problem of water scarcity in the short term, by producing, 110 00:14:06,990 --> 00:14:12,930 by generating more water, using seawater, on the one hand, they have their own environmental impact. 111 00:14:12,930 --> 00:14:21,690 So heavy energy use and putting saline solution back into the sea from the plants. 112 00:14:21,690 --> 00:14:28,650 But they also don't. So they don't address the causes of scarcity, and they don't solve those causes over the long term. 113 00:14:28,650 --> 00:14:34,890 They just solve the problem in the short term and potentially actually create more demand for the water. 114 00:14:34,890 --> 00:14:39,660 The desalination plants are producing so that in the future, 115 00:14:39,660 --> 00:14:49,110 the country becomes entirely reliant on that extra water from desalination plant and potentially makes the case for even more desalination plants. 116 00:14:49,110 --> 00:14:57,720 So how do we when we're talking about sustainable water governance and the water crisis and water scarcity, 117 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:03,420 it's important to really reflect on the causes, the dynamics behind that scarcity, 118 00:15:03,420 --> 00:15:14,130 but also how that not those kinds of narratives can figure solutions down particular routes and in particular, technological solutions. 119 00:15:14,130 --> 00:15:22,020 Yeah. So you were talking about the ways of producing more water through these desalination plants. 120 00:15:22,020 --> 00:15:31,530 Do you think the answer would be then to. Save water instead of produce more water. 121 00:15:31,530 --> 00:15:43,740 Water conservation is a very dominant response to water management and the whole idea of sustainable water management and governance, 122 00:15:43,740 --> 00:15:54,660 but it also has its limitations primarily because while some actors or while some stakeholders or sectors can save water, 123 00:15:54,660 --> 00:16:01,950 sometimes that only serves to save water that can be used for other sectors. 124 00:16:01,950 --> 00:16:10,470 So a good example is modern irrigation technology, so drip feed or micro spray systems, 125 00:16:10,470 --> 00:16:16,860 they're very much favoured because they're perceived to use less water and use the water very efficiently 126 00:16:16,860 --> 00:16:25,110 and direct the water directly to to the plants in ways that more traditional irrigation methods don't do. 127 00:16:25,110 --> 00:16:40,320 And so in a way, this saves water, but often it liberates that same water to be used by other irrigators or to just expand the agricultural area. 128 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:47,400 So in the long run, it doesn't necessarily save water, it just uses water more efficiently. 129 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:55,770 So whether that's a contribution to more sustainable water governance is is quite debateable, I would say. 130 00:16:55,770 --> 00:17:03,420 Yeah. So I was actually reflecting on some of my work from the state of Gujarat, 131 00:17:03,420 --> 00:17:10,650 India and the city of Ahmedabad, where small-scale desalination water filters. 132 00:17:10,650 --> 00:17:22,290 Yeah, they are not plants, and these filters are used at the household level, catering for the needs of mainly middle and higher income groups. 133 00:17:22,290 --> 00:17:29,690 And this filters make it possible, then to access good quality drinking water. 134 00:17:29,690 --> 00:17:41,080 And they are because, yeah, they're supposed to desalinate the tap water, which is then typically a mix of saline groundwater and. 135 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:47,040 Surface water originating from the Narmada river. 136 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:55,620 So, yeah, the the desalination of seawater and studying groundwater, especially in coastal areas, 137 00:17:55,620 --> 00:18:07,450 is indeed becoming rather popularised technological solution to to water governance issues globally. 138 00:18:07,450 --> 00:18:11,410 And yeah, in the case of the state of Gujarat in India, 139 00:18:11,410 --> 00:18:20,570 although some of the groundwater is is actually naturally selling due to its location by the coast. 140 00:18:20,570 --> 00:18:28,060 It's the extraction of ground water for main industrial and agricultural use this. 141 00:18:28,060 --> 00:18:34,190 For example, salt production and then various forms of agriculture and textile industry 142 00:18:34,190 --> 00:18:42,910 also that is worsening actually the sea water intrusion into the groundwater. 143 00:18:42,910 --> 00:18:56,410 And this makes the desalination more and more. Attractive solution, which then again, comes with its own problems, as Jessica mentioned earlier. 144 00:18:56,410 --> 00:19:05,810 And also as another issue related to this, so when the groundwater is becoming saline, there's more surface water. 145 00:19:05,810 --> 00:19:12,200 Especially for the urban areas required from rivers and other sources. 146 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:24,650 And in the case of Ahmedabad and Gujarat, and it's the case of the Narmada river, a very controversial case actually because. 147 00:19:24,650 --> 00:19:33,140 The. Yeah, because the issue of not having drinking water has also then contributed and legitimised the construction 148 00:19:33,140 --> 00:19:44,950 of dams along the river and currently in the water is being channelled to four different states in India. 149 00:19:44,950 --> 00:19:52,870 So as as Jessica nicely put it, the water filters at the household level they are, they don't really address the. 150 00:19:52,870 --> 00:19:57,880 They're not long term solutions to the costliest of poor quality of drinking water, 151 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:06,810 but rather there are several infrastructure and political decisions which are in this case, also shaping the. 152 00:20:06,810 --> 00:20:11,820 Scarcity of drinking water and the narratives around it. 153 00:20:11,820 --> 00:20:19,270 I mean, we have mostly here different by different aspects of of water, water governance that we are really discussing, of course. 154 00:20:19,270 --> 00:20:30,120 Then we have like yours, the drinking drinking water governance and then the more kind of agricultural use. 155 00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:34,650 And then then well, in my case, it's more on the river. 156 00:20:34,650 --> 00:20:41,190 I mean, how you govern River River in water is seen through through dams and well, 157 00:20:41,190 --> 00:20:46,980 I have some work also on the kind of more other water control infrastructure. 158 00:20:46,980 --> 00:20:52,410 But but I think that there is that kind of resonance that we were discussing 159 00:20:52,410 --> 00:21:00,240 on on on how that on how the climate frames can be somewhat problematic or 160 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:13,530 diverting attention on on on key key key issues that are making people want or able to to to to climate or more general environmental vulnerability. 161 00:21:13,530 --> 00:21:17,160 But I was just previously what I was saying. 162 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:22,530 So I was maybe not giving enough, maybe back background in the sense that that large dams, 163 00:21:22,530 --> 00:21:29,020 they were actually very contested in the in the 80s and 90s and Narmada area. 164 00:21:29,020 --> 00:21:37,500 So of course, non-married dam was one of the one of the key struggles that that that that also mobilised a lot of people. 165 00:21:37,500 --> 00:21:39,450 And it was internationally very well known. 166 00:21:39,450 --> 00:21:46,950 And there were a lot of processes that that culminated in the establishment of this World Commission on dams. 167 00:21:46,950 --> 00:21:58,170 And it's very influential report, which kind of synthesised the the old or the understanding of the negative effects of large dams. 168 00:21:58,170 --> 00:22:06,420 And it was saying giving like a lot of a lot of this, this this knowledge had been kind of like counter expertise to that date. 169 00:22:06,420 --> 00:22:14,610 But then it became more mainstream, understanding that that whole huge implications dams had in terms of displacement and the resettlement schemes, 170 00:22:14,610 --> 00:22:18,900 but but also in in other terms and later later. 171 00:22:18,900 --> 00:22:23,640 I mean, there, the commission report stated that there has been that at that time, 172 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:29,940 there had been 40 to 80 million people displaced and later research confirmed that there had 173 00:22:29,940 --> 00:22:39,720 there had been five 500 million people affected in downstream areas of dams negatively and so on. 174 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:45,960 But I mean, in the early 2000, it almost looked at the era of dams was coming to an end. 175 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:54,180 I mean, World Bank was lost because of the there were not a murder case and there were others that World Bank had to step down. 176 00:22:54,180 --> 00:22:59,280 And and it looked at, OK, now the era of dams, 177 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:07,620 dams is gone and the future for world rivers looked a bit brighter and for the river and people as well. 178 00:23:07,620 --> 00:23:17,530 But then, more recently than dams have made a huge comeback and throw a comeback and and it has to do partly with the climate frame. 179 00:23:17,530 --> 00:23:18,120 So of course, 180 00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:30,120 there is also the factor of of China being very intensively wild with its over overseas overseas development and investment work where hydro, 181 00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:38,280 our hydropower dams figure it centrally. But but then in terms of off road bank, for example, the way it has come back to two dams, 182 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:44,940 it is true that it claims that there is a flagship project precisely in the Mekong region in Laos. 183 00:23:44,940 --> 00:23:48,120 It's called the Mountain to Project, 184 00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:56,400 and the World Bank has claimed that it has learnt from the past mistakes and it now knows how to make dams sustainably. 185 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:01,230 And it's precisely these sustainable dams that provide a solution to climate change, 186 00:24:01,230 --> 00:24:08,580 just like precisely because it's renewable energy and and and and so on. 187 00:24:08,580 --> 00:24:13,170 And then I was mentioning that there there are these these claims also in terms of adaptations 188 00:24:13,170 --> 00:24:20,100 that dams could be used in multi-purpose ways to also also mitigate floods and so on. 189 00:24:20,100 --> 00:24:26,160 But what has also happened with this comeback of of large dams that they mainly have come in, especially in the Mekong region? 190 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,790 Now, if I'm talking about focussing on that, so. 191 00:24:29,790 --> 00:24:41,520 So the main, as I was saying earlier. So then the way how we govern water is key in how how climate effects materialise. 192 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,990 So also the way how we govern dams is also quite keen. 193 00:24:45,990 --> 00:24:49,560 How can they be used in in this kind of multi-purpose waste? 194 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:59,520 And the ways how these dams are built is through this concessionary agreements where the corporate concessionaires, 195 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:05,930 they have very high level of autonomy in how they operate the dam for for several decades from. 196 00:25:05,930 --> 00:25:11,520 Twenty five years to even up to 45 years, these concessionary periods are really long. 197 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:20,570 And during that period, the corporate concessionaire has has really the authority to decide over how the dam is operated. 198 00:25:20,570 --> 00:25:26,540 And of course, their rationale is to to to produce profits from selling hydroelectricity. 199 00:25:26,540 --> 00:25:32,210 And and so, so actually, these dams are very unique purpose dams. 200 00:25:32,210 --> 00:25:36,140 So it's highly contradictory that you have these these at the same time, 201 00:25:36,140 --> 00:25:50,090 this this climate justifications that these dams could be used in ways to to, to and to to adapt to climate change, for example, and so on. 202 00:25:50,090 --> 00:25:59,330 Because because often the way that that you operate the dams in terms of maximising the electricity sales is not the same as the way that you would. 203 00:25:59,330 --> 00:26:07,450 You would operate them when you when you maximise flood flood protection, for example. 204 00:26:07,450 --> 00:26:14,810 And then the cumulative impacts of all these dams are such as I was saying that 205 00:26:14,810 --> 00:26:23,960 there are huge the detrimental effects on the fisheries and on all this livelihood 206 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:30,860 things and actually how they alter the river flows and how they affect the river 207 00:26:30,860 --> 00:26:37,670 like a hydro ecology is that they actually temper the seasonal differences. 208 00:26:37,670 --> 00:26:48,710 So they so it in certain estimates, it can look that that that dams are actually doing away the flood season, the rainy season and the floods. 209 00:26:48,710 --> 00:26:57,710 But what they actually are doing is that they kind of they are taking away the benefits from the floods that that that, for example, 210 00:26:57,710 --> 00:27:06,860 the flood pulse ecology is very much behind it, very rich inland fisheries and the flooded forests, ecology and everything. 211 00:27:06,860 --> 00:27:19,850 So the way so if you temper this, the normal rainy season flows or is so so that's actually detrimental in terms of the flood related benefits. 212 00:27:19,850 --> 00:27:30,890 But at the same time, the dams are not really able to to to mitigate the the or control the exceptionally strong floods. 213 00:27:30,890 --> 00:27:32,240 And in these cases, 214 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:42,770 often that the dam operators they need to resort into emergency releases and those actually often exacerbate the devastating floods. 215 00:27:42,770 --> 00:27:47,570 So there is that. So this sort of does seem to take away the flood benefits, 216 00:27:47,570 --> 00:28:00,920 but not not not controlled the the the harms from floods and and actually they even in some cases exacerbate the the the the floods. 217 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:05,200 And and at the same time, also the low, low, 218 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:14,690 low carbon justification is problematic because especially in tropics and in the Mekong region, the dams that do require large reservoirs. 219 00:28:14,690 --> 00:28:25,040 So they are actually quite significant methane emitters and some of the some of the largest reservoirs it has been estimated that they, 220 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:29,460 they they can even equal to fossil fuel or coal power plants. 221 00:28:29,460 --> 00:28:39,980 So. So even even the even the low carbon argument, this is sometimes problematic, not with all of the dams, but with some of the dams. 222 00:28:39,980 --> 00:28:50,580 But even more problematic are these claims that that that dams could help in in reducing flood vulnerabilities and climate vulnerabilities, 223 00:28:50,580 --> 00:28:54,620 while while in fact they they often open ended. 224 00:28:54,620 --> 00:28:59,150 And the other thing is, it's actually hard to say how two dams, 225 00:28:59,150 --> 00:29:07,800 how they lock sediments and the sediments are key to the coastal areas and the Mekong Delta in Vietnam, for example. 226 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:12,890 So now that the sea level is rising and then you have less sediment, so actually, then again, 227 00:29:12,890 --> 00:29:20,450 you have this kind of problem of dams actually be exacerbating the climate vulnerability. 228 00:29:20,450 --> 00:29:26,000 And of course, the more dams are justified in climate terms. 229 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:35,360 It also often takes attention ways or marginalises the other socio environmental concerns related to dams. 230 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:43,460 So this is a it's a very complex picture, but there are many ways in which you can you can really question and what and why. 231 00:29:43,460 --> 00:29:49,910 It's also important to open up this, this this climate related claims and justifications. 232 00:29:49,910 --> 00:30:00,830 I think that's really interesting. I think what's your example really shows is how so-called sustainable development is so uneven. 233 00:30:00,830 --> 00:30:06,110 So in the kind of sustainability narrative, there's this idea that the environment. 234 00:30:06,110 --> 00:30:14,360 The economy and social needs can be balanced quite neatly that there is kind of this situation where we can balance all of these, 235 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:24,440 and I think what you've shown is the trade-offs that occur within these relationships so that some aspects, for example, 236 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:34,940 carbon, even though I know you critique that can be kind of rendered sustainable, but in a way that has other effects that impact other sectors, 237 00:30:34,940 --> 00:30:42,170 such as the lack of benefits that floods traditionally bring in large river basins like the Mekong. 238 00:30:42,170 --> 00:30:49,700 So I think what's really important in the whole debate around sustainable water governance is to focus 239 00:30:49,700 --> 00:30:58,700 on unevenness and the unevenness of the effects of interventions that are designed to be sustainable. 240 00:30:58,700 --> 00:31:04,700 However, that's framed and the effects of these interventions on different social groups 241 00:31:04,700 --> 00:31:11,540 and the unevenness and the inequalities that that come into those relationships. 242 00:31:11,540 --> 00:31:16,940 And from my work in Chile, looking again at the desalination plants, 243 00:31:16,940 --> 00:31:27,440 one of the effects of those desalination plants is that arguably or I would argue that they sustain unsustainable development because they provide 244 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:39,020 the water that's necessary to sustain a heavy water using export agriculture sector that arguably was never sustainable in the first place. 245 00:31:39,020 --> 00:31:50,180 So rather than examine water use in a country and how that's allocated between different industries and different social groups, 246 00:31:50,180 --> 00:31:56,090 and look at how that could be reformed, 247 00:31:56,090 --> 00:32:03,560 many kind of readings of sustainability tend to go straight for the technical solutions that have that have these 248 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:14,750 wider effects of sustaining unsustainable situations or leaving groups who don't have access to water resources. 249 00:32:14,750 --> 00:32:24,020 Poorer groups, especially in the global south, leaving them in the same situation as they were as they have been before. 250 00:32:24,020 --> 00:32:28,070 I think that speaks to your work also, Linda. Yeah, 251 00:32:28,070 --> 00:32:37,220 I I really liked your phrasing of kind of sustaining unsustainable situations and practises and 252 00:32:37,220 --> 00:32:46,190 reproducing inequalities in in the case of Gujarat and the and the city of Ahmedabad in particular, 253 00:32:46,190 --> 00:32:56,340 the lack of addressing this poor quality municipal drinking water has has normalised the idea. 254 00:32:56,340 --> 00:33:02,580 That households should be or they are being responsible for finding solutions 255 00:33:02,580 --> 00:33:10,020 such as this desalinate water filters from the sphere of the private market. 256 00:33:10,020 --> 00:33:18,650 And although in some cases, this might be feasible in the case of Ahmedabad. 257 00:33:18,650 --> 00:33:33,060 This type of inequality, structural inequalities. Make it such that it's not everybody who can afford these types of water filters. 258 00:33:33,060 --> 00:33:42,650 They are rather expensive. And then again, since some higher income groups do have their water filters in place, 259 00:33:42,650 --> 00:33:53,200 they are as such satisfied with their solutions to drinking water this this then weakens. 260 00:33:53,200 --> 00:34:01,940 The the collective and public pressure towards the government to address the issues of municipal water. 261 00:34:01,940 --> 00:34:08,690 And because they're the different groups are don't have any more of the same same interests. 262 00:34:08,690 --> 00:34:22,790 I guess we also came to this governing aspect here, but that that why it's perhaps not enough to talk only about water management when you when 263 00:34:22,790 --> 00:34:29,030 you think that it's easily just a technical question of of of allocating water and and so on. 264 00:34:29,030 --> 00:34:34,340 But it's it's very much a governing question that has to do with power relations as well. 265 00:34:34,340 --> 00:34:41,300 And this is also why why, for example, this in the case of of of large dams, for example. 266 00:34:41,300 --> 00:34:49,250 So I'd say it's a very illustrative example of very unequally distributed benefits and harms where mostly the 267 00:34:49,250 --> 00:35:00,380 groups benefiting from the dams are are are definitely not the ones suffering the most from from the dams. 268 00:35:00,380 --> 00:35:09,620 And of course, this picture again can differ in different contexts, but especially in in areas where there is already high inequalities. 269 00:35:09,620 --> 00:35:16,100 So so this kind of project, such as a large dam, so equally, easily, 270 00:35:16,100 --> 00:35:26,270 easily and often exacerbate this and strengthen this in inequalities and this these type of projects, 271 00:35:26,270 --> 00:35:37,430 they they are kind of shaped through power relations, but they also have have major power effects, like in terms of of large scale dams. 272 00:35:37,430 --> 00:35:42,260 They really centralised the decisions as Jessica Jessica. 273 00:35:42,260 --> 00:35:51,980 But this is God has made a lot of work in this with this concept of hydro, social relations and so on, and I've also been inspired through that. 274 00:35:51,980 --> 00:35:53,750 But dams are an example. 275 00:35:53,750 --> 00:36:04,370 How, how, how decisions that affect how do social relations really get centralised and and they are they and often the ones who are, 276 00:36:04,370 --> 00:36:12,260 most said, affected by dams, they have the least opportunities to to affect how the dam is built and operated. 277 00:36:12,260 --> 00:36:22,660 And and at the same time, it has kind of like a dispossession effect almost on them because then they can't anymore. 278 00:36:22,660 --> 00:36:31,710 They like I mean, it's it's also in the case of of these these dams, for example, in Laos. 279 00:36:31,710 --> 00:36:36,800 So as they are, they are operated to to maximise electricity sales. 280 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:44,210 So what actually defines how the down side operated are far away residents in urban centres, for example, in Bangkok and and so on. 281 00:36:44,210 --> 00:36:55,760 And it has been even even studied that it's it's very much that dams in a way they they they they produce electricity to peak electricity demand. 282 00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:02,810 So, so, so often those peaks are in when air conditioning is used the most, for example. 283 00:37:02,810 --> 00:37:10,460 So. So it's so it's a certain hours and certain seasons like the tri season and so on. 284 00:37:10,460 --> 00:37:16,160 When, when, when the when did the the hydroelectricity so sold the most? 285 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:25,160 And so it's these peaks in demand in urban, far away urban centres that actually then conditions how people can live with 286 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:30,770 with with their riverine environments and what kind of Jessica's into cycles, 287 00:37:30,770 --> 00:37:36,800 where it's what kind of hydro social relations they can, they can develop. 288 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,980 And so so it's it's again a kind of yes, 289 00:37:40,980 --> 00:37:50,960 illustrates the kind of unequal power relations that often are at stake with with with major water works and infrastructure. 290 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:59,390 Yes, I certainly I certainly think that's the focus of our discussions on sustainable water. 291 00:37:59,390 --> 00:38:05,690 Governance should be on the water itself and what happens with the water and how we 292 00:38:05,690 --> 00:38:12,650 can kind of make that sustainable through policy shifts or technological means. 293 00:38:12,650 --> 00:38:20,150 But focussing more neatly on how that water is allocated, 294 00:38:20,150 --> 00:38:30,380 how that water is used and what kind of institutions and decision making structures exist to mean that in so many cases, 295 00:38:30,380 --> 00:38:40,130 water is diverted to the highest economic uses. So, as Miriam was saying, the political economy that determines how much water is used, 296 00:38:40,130 --> 00:38:47,270 where and in what ways and with what effects on people who are often the most marginalised social groups. 297 00:38:47,270 --> 00:38:54,500 So shifting the focus away from the water itself and onto those decision making relations around 298 00:38:54,500 --> 00:39:01,330 water that should be at the heart of governance and focussing our discussions around sustainability. 299 00:39:01,330 --> 00:39:07,840 On the nature of those decisions, I think that's really key. 300 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:16,060 And also, when we when we talk about river environment, so it's also important to precisely this focus only on water on water quantities 301 00:39:16,060 --> 00:39:21,940 is very problematic because open river and I mean the fluvial in relationally, 302 00:39:21,940 --> 00:39:25,510 these are so much more than just flows of water. 303 00:39:25,510 --> 00:39:31,000 So I've sometimes made the kind of comparison in my mind that it's almost like if you are talking about forests, 304 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,240 but you start talking about only about stocks of olive trees. 305 00:39:34,240 --> 00:39:43,810 So it's the same that if you talk about reverse and you only talk about about water quantities, so you lose sight from all these different, 306 00:39:43,810 --> 00:39:57,640 well, sediments, the fisheries and all the livelihoods built, built around, around or around like this flood ecology and fisheries and so on. 307 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:12,070 So, so often also, the certain approaches to to river management are sometimes too determined by certain ways of producing knowledge, 308 00:40:12,070 --> 00:40:19,030 for example, that you have you use hydrological models. And so on an international river basis, these are really key because you, of course, 309 00:40:19,030 --> 00:40:24,730 you need to see if water is allocated equally between the states or and so on. 310 00:40:24,730 --> 00:40:34,180 But but then at the same time, if you do this, this this way of approaching reverses is also problematic because then then for example, 311 00:40:34,180 --> 00:40:41,030 fisheries is often something that that is then totally lost from the picture, for example. 312 00:40:41,030 --> 00:40:51,370 And so and so so the the the very narrow of water focus is also problematic in this way in river river environments. 313 00:40:51,370 --> 00:41:00,310 But it's also true that it's it's also a problematic in in not paying attention to these different power relations, 314 00:41:00,310 --> 00:41:05,770 which determine how we use water and how we control water and on what we do with water. 315 00:41:05,770 --> 00:41:10,510 So in in in both ways, it's it's important. 316 00:41:10,510 --> 00:41:20,740 But then sometimes what what the decisions on water works and water infrastructure can, can, can trigger other other sorts of extractive isms. 317 00:41:20,740 --> 00:41:28,030 And I guess in your context, in in in Latin America, I was supposed to I was thinking to ask about the role, but you were talking more about it. 318 00:41:28,030 --> 00:41:35,920 But I think there is, at least in Amazon. I know that there are several large dams that are only built to feed large mines. 319 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:44,380 Yes. So there is like a nexus of mining and hydropower, which is then a kind of a complex of extractive ism. 320 00:41:44,380 --> 00:41:53,800 And then there is an issue in the Mekong region. Then often these dams are built in remote upland areas and they open paths because 321 00:41:53,800 --> 00:42:00,760 they come with new roads and everything so they can kind of trigger a logging there, 322 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:05,860 like a lot of a lot of like intensified logging because of hydropower development. 323 00:42:05,860 --> 00:42:12,570 And then there can be also new land speculation that gets triggered with all the new roads and what what, 324 00:42:12,570 --> 00:42:15,700 what comes with the weather, with the hydropower. 325 00:42:15,700 --> 00:42:24,550 And then there is the the issue of of resettlement that that's actually something that that that that is a key power effect in 326 00:42:24,550 --> 00:42:32,170 the sense that that often the state authorities have quite quite a significant role in how these settlements are carried out. 327 00:42:32,170 --> 00:42:40,900 And in Laos, they actually have been used almost in to complement the state plans to consolidate these 328 00:42:40,900 --> 00:42:47,860 are plant minority groups and also intensify the control over over these minority groups. 329 00:42:47,860 --> 00:42:55,120 So in some ways, there is also that kind of power effect that is not directly related to water policy, 330 00:42:55,120 --> 00:43:05,470 but is related to to to this water large water infrastructure projects that come with other elements like like resettlement schemes, for example. 331 00:43:05,470 --> 00:43:13,090 I think the role of the political economy in determining water use water allocation is something that's often really missed by 332 00:43:13,090 --> 00:43:21,250 the sustainability debates that kind of take a much more environmental approach as if water's completely disconnected from, 333 00:43:21,250 --> 00:43:25,270 you know, from economic life. I think that's really important really, 334 00:43:25,270 --> 00:43:35,710 really interesting discussions and and perspectives related to to our topic of sustainable water governance today. 335 00:43:35,710 --> 00:43:46,780 Could you perhaps formulate some kind of key takeaways? Are some core messages around this topic now for the audience? 336 00:43:46,780 --> 00:43:59,290 I think my key takeaway would be the idea that sustainable water governance and attempts to foster sustainable water governance are often uneven, 337 00:43:59,290 --> 00:44:06,390 whereby you can have decisions or conditions that are sustainable in some respects or for some group. 338 00:44:06,390 --> 00:44:17,670 But not necessarily for others. So I think approaching the idea that there can be some sort of sustainable situation for all and in a harmonious way, 339 00:44:17,670 --> 00:44:22,990 I think we need to engage really critically with that idea. 340 00:44:22,990 --> 00:44:33,910 So perhaps the principal of the Agenda 2030 of leaving no one behind is perhaps not fully realised in these discussions. 341 00:44:33,910 --> 00:44:42,220 Yes, I think I think it's I think these sorts of perspectives are based on the idea that, you know, 342 00:44:42,220 --> 00:44:51,190 there is a sustainable scenario that can hit environmental, social and economic goals all at the same time and in complete harmony. 343 00:44:51,190 --> 00:44:53,830 And I think in practise, I think as the cases, 344 00:44:53,830 --> 00:45:04,180 the examples that we've used today really show there can be some ways in which interventions can be sustainable or sustainable for some groups, 345 00:45:04,180 --> 00:45:09,820 but often at the expense of other groups. 346 00:45:09,820 --> 00:45:17,410 Thank you, Jessica. How about mirror? Any kind of summarising points are key takeaways. 347 00:45:17,410 --> 00:45:20,830 Jessica summarised. It's where it very, very nicely. 348 00:45:20,830 --> 00:45:28,510 And I guess I would just also have said something similar along the lines that that, 349 00:45:28,510 --> 00:45:35,830 of course, climate change is, is, is it's really as we start with this. 350 00:45:35,830 --> 00:45:46,670 So it really does materialise often through water. But it's precisely then water governance and how we decide how we use and control water. 351 00:45:46,670 --> 00:45:51,010 What was what if, what is really important and it's getting more and more important. 352 00:45:51,010 --> 00:45:55,930 So it's really requires more attention as well. 353 00:45:55,930 --> 00:46:01,720 And perhaps if something not only about water, but then on on on on climate. 354 00:46:01,720 --> 00:46:11,350 So I would just say because of my focus on hydropower. So I would just say perhaps that it's that I hope that that we could examine 355 00:46:11,350 --> 00:46:19,240 critically this this expectation that that we just solve the climate crisis 356 00:46:19,240 --> 00:46:30,580 by by replacing fossil energy with renewable energy because there are a lot of issues with renewable energy as well that you need to pay attention to. 357 00:46:30,580 --> 00:46:38,500 And these implications that hydropower for, for example, have to biodiversity to riverine environments, to riverine people and livelihoods and so on. 358 00:46:38,500 --> 00:46:41,740 So it's something that really deserves more discussion as well. 359 00:46:41,740 --> 00:46:50,650 Thank you both Jessica and Mira for you already really, really insightful discussions today. 360 00:46:50,650 --> 00:46:58,150 And I want to thank you all listeners for for joining today to listen on the very kind of hot, 361 00:46:58,150 --> 00:47:10,720 very contested discourses on sustainable water governance and and hydropower relations in terms of energy production. 362 00:47:10,720 --> 00:47:35,680 So thank you all and wishing you all a nice day.