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Sustainability unwrapped a conversation new podcast about responsibility, ethics, inequalities,

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climate change and other challenges of our times where science needs practise to think about evolve and how to make our society more sustainable.

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One podcast at a time. Hello and welcome to this podcast from the Honkin School of Economics,

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serious sustainability unwrapped our topic today is fostering diversity and inclusion in the digital games industry.

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My name is Marquetry Harvey and I am your host.

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I come from the Baylor University School of Business and Economics, where I work as Academy of Finland postdoctoral researcher.

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In my current project, I looked at women's careers in the games industry, in Finland and in Canada,

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and I have really learnt that women encounter multiple challenges when they try to establish a career in this, yet very much male dominated field.

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For example, they often lack access to email networks or simply don't feel like they fit in to this rather masculine culture.

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However, these entry barriers, they actually go beyond the cis women.

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Previous studies have also demonstrated that building a career in the digital games industry is

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challenging not only for women but also other marginalised groups like racial and sexual minorities.

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And these groups can also feel excluded from the game of culture at large.

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There need to foster diversity and inclusion is increasingly addressed both within the industry as well as the wider society in the industry.

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There is a shortage of games. Workers and women are recognised as one big underutilised resource.

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The industry makeup is still male, male dominated globally.

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Women constitute about one fifth of the workforce and the situation is the same here in Finland,

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according to the game industry of Finland 2020 report, which was published by NIA Games.

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Women comprise 22 percent each of the industry workforce, in addition to the gender imbalance.

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There is also a desire to bring in more foreign talents.

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This is something that, particularly the industry veterans and organisations representing the industry have promoted in the media.

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Overall, there is a great business motivation to attract, to recruit and hold on to a diverse workforce.

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On the social level,

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we can see that there have been a number of social media movements regarding the discrimination and marginalisation faced by gender,

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racial and sexual minorities in different social spaces, including the digital games, culture and the industry.

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And I'm sure you have also seen these some of the recent examples of the Stop Asian Hate movement,

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which was launched against racism and the global MeToo campaign, which exposed sexist behaviour and harassment and systemic discrimination of women.

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While these issues are seemingly very topical at the moment, they are actually not new.

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In fact, the discriminatory and non-inclusion aspects of the games, culture and industry have been talked about ever since 2014,

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when the Gamergate online harassment movement against women, game developers and feminist media critics brought these issues to the wider public.

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And the way I see and study diversity and inclusion is that they pretty much go hand in hand.

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And for us to be able to have diversity, that is people with different kinds of ethnic and racial backgrounds,

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gender identities, sexual orientations and so on,

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you will definitely need to ensure that there are opportunities for these people with varied kinds of

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identities to feel included that they feel like they belong and that they are accepted as the way they are.

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A very important share of work towards more inclusive organisational cultures and

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gamer cultures is done through voluntary work in various non-profit organisations.

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And today I have great pleasure to talk with two games industry activists who do

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volunteer work to support diversity and inclusion in the games industry spaces,

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as well as the wider tech sector. I'm very happy to welcome our guests.

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Yemeni entrepreneur works as communications consultant within the tech and games industry at its profile,

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and she's also a community volunteer at an inclusive, welcoming any.

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Thank you. It's great to be here. We also have with us, Marion Nimrod, the co-founder and president of Female Gaming Finland.

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Erin, welcome Molly. And thanks for the invitation, and I'm happy to join.

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So during this broadcast, we will be talking about your personal experiences from the games, industry and gaming cultures.

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We will also ambition and try to figure out some solutions to how diversity and inclusion can be supported and how to prepare for that to begin.

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Would you like to tell a little bit more about yourselves? Jenny, maybe you could start.

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Sure. So as my day job, I work as a communications consultant within the tech industry,

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that profile and diversity is a key theme for me due to my work at a very white and male dominated field.

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I work with tech companies on a daily basis, and one of the key challenges is finding enough skilled workforce with diverse backgrounds.

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But it's also about creating better products and services, as well as doing the right thing.

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I'm also a community volunteer at the inclusive, would you say,

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non-profit organisation founded in 2019 with the mission to support organisations in their diversity, equity and inclusion journey.

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Thank you again. How about you? I met you.

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Well, I'm the president of female gaming in Finland, y it k FGF and also one of its founder members.

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I'm also a social work student in the University of Bhaskara, and I work as a game educator in School of Gaming,

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and FGF just founded a basically because of a diversity issues in gaming culture.

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We felt like a female gamers and people thought of gender minorities could benefit from a gaming community of their own.

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That's why inside our organisation, we discuss a lot about diversity issues,

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and we also work together so that we could have a more diverse gaming culture.

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Thanks, Mary, I'm happy to have you here as well. So how would you describe your personal relation and involvement in digital games?

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Do you play yourselves and what kinds of experiences do you have from the gaming culture?

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I play a lot of video games myself ever since from my early childhood, really, so I have a lot of mixed experiences.

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Overall, I have always had a supportive gamer friends who have made me feel welcome.

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But of course, I also have faced a lot of prejudices and assumptions based on gender stereotypes.

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I mostly play story based single player games myself, a lot of speeches and so on.

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So I think I do get it somewhat easier than people playing online games, for example.

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But I still face gender based harassment, bullying and even disdain at gaming related online communities.

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For example, some people assume I can play or have a certain taste because of my gender.

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Like, I'm only into easy or casual games or don't really know much about gaming or the history of games.

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And for some reason, some people often feel like asking for random, irrelevant trivia.

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So I can prove I'm this mythical real gamer, which I'm sure a lot of women have faced during their game years.

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And I think it's a form of gatekeeping, which also often happens based on gender alone.

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And we do have plenty of studies and data that shows that women play games almost as much as men.

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Have people latch on to these stereotypes and keep on repeating them?

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And of course, a lot has changed since my youth.

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I'm 30 something right now and we have more initiatives, organisations and activists trying to improve the space for all.

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And that's something I'm extremely happy about personally.

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It's today are all used to playing something, and I hope my generation of 30 somethings is the last one to get gaming.

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OK, my turn. I haven't been playing video games since I was a child, my first console wasn't indigenous and I've been playing ever since.

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Nowadays, I mostly play on PC, but I also play on PBS, PlayStation and on Nintendo Switch.

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I have lots of experiences from gaming culture since I've been a part of it for a quite long time.

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I also belong to different gamer groups on social media, which are directed towards women.

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I don't play that much with random people, but when I do, the experiences are not always so nice.

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For example, I remember this one time when I grew up with some random guys on Overwatch and we played like many matches together.

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Oh, well, eventually they found out I was a female because people usually think that I sound like a young boy.

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But yeah, when they found out I was a female, they started laughing and discussing something in their own language.

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And then they kicked me out like it was OK to play multiple matches with me until they found out I was a woman.

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Also, the harassing on voice chat is quite familiar to me.

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Female Gaming Finland, we decided to found when I was feeling for this one over tournament,

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I met some female players during the tournament and we became friends.

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We discussed a lot about the gaming culture in Finland,

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and we wondered why women didn't have a gaming community here at all since we felt like it was needed.

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Then we decided to fund it ourselves. When we started to plan the founding, we decided to include people part of gender minorities.

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The female gaming in Finland to be new gender minorities also counter lots of discrimination in the gaming culture.

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Thank CNN, Marianne, for sharing your own gameplay experiences.

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I must say that these two resonate quite well with the the the experiences that I have heard from so

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many other women in working in the industry and who are involved in the in the gaming communities.

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And also for me personally, because I am not a gamer.

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I have played some games when I was a child, but to enter this kind of a field and to do research in the games industry,

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it has been quite interesting because I very often bumped into this assumption, first of all.

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But since I am studying games industry, I must be a gamer. And then when I say that I'm not.

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People are like, Well, how can you study? Why do you want to study this and how can you even understand anything that is going on here?

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So I think that this resembles the the assumption, very strong assumption that you have to be a certain kind of gamer and very knowledgeable of games.

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But I'm sure that for both of you, as you explained your own experiences,

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it must be very meaningful to do voluntary work in a community where you are also yourselves active participants,

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and you can relate to some of the issues through your own personal experiences.

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And at this point, I would be curious to hear what you perceive as the key issues regarding diversity in gaming and the games industry.

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Yeah, and gaming women and minorities still face a lot of online harassment and bullying simply because their gender, sexuality or ethnicity.

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Women make nearly half of all gamers and have done so for quite many years now.

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Yet many are discouraged to continue playing games because of the poor treatment they receive.

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Some have even chosen not to participate using voice chats or opt to use male characters to hide their own gender.

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Yeah, I agree. For women, it might be harder, for example, to play games competitively, since many are afraid to use the voice jets.

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It's also common to create a neutral gamer attack zone.

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No one knows your gender. If we look at is e-sports scene, for example, there are hardly any women or people who belong to gender minorities there.

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That means there aren't any role models for young people, either.

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It may be harder for women, for example, to start even practise gaming skills,

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since we all know the gaming culture can be quite sexist and misogynistic.

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Gaming was considered a boy's immense thing for a long time.

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Even today, I find that games are often advertised with the male lead,

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even though you can create quite diverse characters nowadays in games in the cover picture.

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There is often a white male. Overall, there are lots and lots of structural barriers when it comes to women, gender minorities and gaming.

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In the last few years, we have been moving forward with this topic, but there's still lots to be done.

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As for the games industry, they sure seem to go hand in hand with the larger issue to field.

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The industry is still bitter, white and male. Dominant company culture may not be inclusive enough for all the voices to feel welcome or

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even heard making many minorities uncomfortable to apply for certain positions or companies.

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Sexual harassment and poor treatment at industry events make women steer clear, and according to many studies,

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the lack of encouragement and role models impact their career paths early on

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so they may never enter the industry regardless of their initial interest.

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And as Mark mentioned in the beginning, we do need more workforce in tech and games, and the demand is only growing in the future.

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If you succeed in creating a diverse and inclusive company culture,

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this will attract diverse applicants as more people are encouraged to enter the industry.

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There are also other motivations to foster diversity. Homogeneous teams are less efficient and design less optimal products and services,

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whereas diverse teams increase customer satisfaction, are more efficient and help create more revenue to.

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And yeah, I think this all sounds very interesting, and when I listen to you, I would maybe like to get some more details.

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So can you tell a little bit about how you actually tackle these issues in your organisations, at inclusive and at female gaming Finland, for example?

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What types of activities do you arrange to support diversity?

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We'll have to see if the entire mission is to make work life more diverse, patient information,

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offering concrete learnings and consultation, and acting as a resource hub for companies looking to kick start their diversity journey.

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The volunteer community, which I'm in, as well as the employees of the non-profit organisation,

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are all from various backgrounds as diversity is a key value internally at inclusive as well.

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And as for my day job as a consultant,

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I help my clients to recognise the most common pitfalls and support diversity throughout their PR and marketing efforts.

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Many of my clients are recruiting a lot, and they need to have their employer brand in a great shape to attract enough

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talent and diversity and inclusion are one of the key cornerstones in that work.

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Yeah,

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I'm sure that managing sort of the employer brand is particularly important in this type of a field where companies are really competing for talent.

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And I think it's also more challenging because it's nowadays quite common that people are looking for jobs.

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They actually look for information from social media platforms.

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You ask around from current and former employees your friends and try to do this sort of an informal background checking.

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So to have your brand in a good shape, it's really important.

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And I think that with this sort of public acknowledgement of the importance of diversity and inclusion,

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people are becoming more aware of these issues and they are more concerning or considering these issues more when when they look for jobs.

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So Jenny, you mentioned these pitfalls. I was wondering, based on your experiences,

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can you give some examples of the typical diversity barriers that these companies have and

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maybe what kinds of changes they can make to improve the sense of belonging and inclusion?

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Yeah. If we talk about external communications alone, which is pretty much the field I work in,

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it's the seemingly small little things like what is the tone of voice of your brand?

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Which type of image is being used on your social feeds or websites or whatever?

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If you use overly masculine language or a white male dominant imagery, which is very common in second game sexually,

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it might be hard for someone to picture themselves working for your company if they don't see themselves fit into the team.

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So diverse images make it easier for people from diverse backgrounds to feel welcome to even apply.

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So I make sure my website,

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social feeds and other channels would attract the people I would want to reach if I was someone looking for diverse applicants.

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Also, don't just settle with what the diverse people just want, apply and leave the efforts there.

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I've heard this so many times yet there's been no actions made to reach or attract the diverse audiences they want to reach out to.

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So if you have 20 white dudes on your company page and keep looking for a great culture for you, what are the odds than other than white men?

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Feel welcome and even want to apply? And on the cultural side,

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it's better to make sure your company culture actually is inclusive throughout

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and supports diversity before communicating that through external audiences.

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Because if your current employees don't feel included, they will react poorly to the misalignment between your words and actions.

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Thanks, Jenny. It is quite interesting what you said about this issue, how you need to represent your company visually.

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And I find this to be a really nice hands-on example that is quite easy for companies to accomplish and to pay attention to.

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Because for companies who are interested in diversity, it may be easier to start off with something very practical, such as this.

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And as you also mentioned this larger scale change in the company culture,

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it requires then a longer term commitment where you really need to examine the various

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practises in the company and evaluate how well all of those align with supporting diversity.

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How about Marion? What do you actually do, what female game gaming Finland?

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Well, we have been organising events related to gaming and working in game industry in these events.

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We've had speakers from different organisations.

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For us, it is also extremely important to create at least one safe community where everyone can, where everyone can feel safe.

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Discuss about these topics or experiences and look for gaming friends of similar people.

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That's why we also organised normal gaming related events to our members.

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And you can just come hang out there and have a chat with others.

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OK. So how does this issue of safety actually arise?

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What does safety mean in this context and how can you then ensure a safe environment?

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Well, in our events, we've had some people joining in just a drop.

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It's quite usual in gaming culture.

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Some people join our Discord server, for example, just sent hateful and sexist messages or something hateful in boys channels.

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This is why, for example, moderation and zero tolerance are super important, and we need to intervene immediately when something like this happens.

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Also, if we, for example, organised gaming events, we need to think about the way people, the the way we let people talk.

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This is something that, for example, also e-sports organisations should consider like it's not good if people, for example,

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let's go boys when the game starts, even though it would feel a bit dumb to intervene in something like that.

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You definitely should. It takes a lot of patience and dedication to create a safer environment for everyone.

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Yeah, for sure. And what you said about this way of talking?

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What kinds of words do you use? It's very important, actually, and I think it has to do with the fact that both gaming and also the games industry,

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they have been sort of traditionally very up boys playing field and and boys playing together and boys also establishing companies together.

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And then it has been sort of normal to assume that everybody around us are also boys or men.

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And then you adopt this certain type of language sensitive type of joking and so on.

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And now it's just something that we actively need to remind ourselves and remind our community members that, hey, there are also women.

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There are also other other types of people who are very much involved in this hobby and in this industry.

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And how do the two of you then see the role of the non-profit sector in the work towards more inclusive gamer cultures?

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Why do you think that organisations such as the ones you are involved with are needed?

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Oh, yeah, well, the entire point of inclusive is to make diversity and inclusion or related knowledge accessible to everyone,

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as well as support companies and organisations to make an impact.

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And of course, we have many commercial entities offering beer by training, for example.

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But I think it's important to have non-commercial organisations operating in that

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space to ensure support and latest information is indeed available for everyone.

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We, for example,

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don't work directly with the gamer culture app or say but can offer insights to game companies to improve the inclusiveness of their company,

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as well as the communities around their games.

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Well, like I earlier described, we felt like an association like FGF was needed because there wasn't anything like it yet in a field.

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Our association, for example, helps raising the knowledge about the state of women and minorities in gaming culture.

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We also help lots of researchers and work together with different colleague colleges and universities through this kind of cooperation.

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Our members get more knowledge about topics, for example, working in the gaming field.

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We organise events that are related to gaming or working in the gaming field, and our events have been really liked so far.

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And people usually wish for more. That's why I myself see us as a connecting link between gamers and different organisations.

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Yeah, I'm sure that this this kind of breaching that the different communities and reaching different people is very important.

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And have you encountered any challenges when you try to foster diversity and what kinds of issues are we possibly looking at?

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I quite often, yeah, for a minute,

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it might be difficult to recognise their own privileges and they may even start feeling guilty or if someone is playing them personally,

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and that's when people start shutting down from the possibility that not everyone gets the same opportunities.

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Sometimes people just choose to downplay any issues,

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and sometimes people trying to foster diversity and inclusion are seen as party poopers or just challenging personas.

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Even though the aim is to make sure many voices are heard. And of course, there's always the people who think diversity is merely a PR stunt,

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and they only want you involved to make their organisation or themselves look good.

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I've faced this a lot. And for me, it's very hard to take part,

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but it's also very hard to refuse because I'm I'm someone or I'm trying to be someone who often aims to raise awareness and create impact.

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So that's something I've faced a lot. It's a yes for me, too.

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Like I said earlier in our own events, we've had some people who just saw a joint there to draw.

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I've noticed that also in social media, this topic always seems to heat things up a bit.

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I see a lot of comments like if women are so good at gaming, how come there is none in the sport?

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Women always complain about pointless stuff. Everyone gets commenting on gaming, and it's no different for women, for women and so on.

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Yeah, I'm sure we are all familiar with these kinds of sort of counter discourses or counter arguments that question the issue.

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That's why why we need to talk about this. And it's very interesting that that you both addressed here this this social

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controversy that we have around this equality initiatives and also in research.

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I can see that it's widely recognised that minority people often experience very

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difficult to speak out exactly because you quite easily become labelled as difficult.

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And this is something that women in particular experience,

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and that is one of the reasons that many of the discriminatory practises and many of the harassment cases,

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whether they are big or small, they they are silenced because there are not enough spaces where you can actually speak out about them.

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Well, if we then look at all the work that nonetheless is done for promoting diversity.

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Do you think that we are doing enough and the right types of things?

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Or would you like to see some changes in how in how we approach diversity issues?

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For an organisational or or the company's side,

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we are seeing organisations using more data and hiring specific roles to support diversity and inclusion related initiatives within their companies,

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but we also see a lot of companies merely starting their efforts. So what we could use, I think,

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is more diversity consultants who already exist and offer tailor-made trainings and assessments to see where your company actually stands.

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We need to create diversity as the company wide business transformation.

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It is rather than something that the PR or marketing or H.R. does on the side if there are other tasks.

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So get a professional off this field to support that transformation.

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This ensures that we take the right steps and the actual impact gets done as well without impact.

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Your wasting time. After all. Well, in my opinion, progress has been made, but we still need to do more in this situation.

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It wouldn't be bad, for example, to organise different leagues in esports for female players and gender minorities,

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for example, like Riot Games planned through. I feel like it's easier to take part in those.

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For example,

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I've seen lots of questionnaires where female players don't even want to consider e-sports because the gaming community is so toxic towards women.

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Also, the penalties in games for toxic behaviour could be more severe.

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Usually you get like two days mute in chat as a penalty, and of course,

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the penalties get more severe depending on how much you keep breaking the rules.

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Eventually, you might get your account banned, but it will take a little take a lot of rule breaking before that happens.

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In some games, people get banned because of toxicity. But then they just create a new account and keep on being toxic.

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In addition, I think it would be really important to make more diverse game characters and use them in the adverts to role models are really

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important so people can see that gaming industry is also available for people like them and something they can choose to do.

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Yes, I think that you both raised very important aspects here.

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What you said, Mariane, about this idea that we might create women only spaces,

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so that's something I've also run into in my research that they can be sometimes very helpful because,

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like you pointed out, even female players in involved in high performance EA Sports, they also encounter dismissive comments.

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So it's not even though they are very skilled players.

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There is still a lot of mitigation against women, and this has, I think, a lot to do with the masculine gamer culture,

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which pretty much assumes that men are prototypical the hardcore, highly skilled gamers.

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Whereas girl gamers play skills, they are often questioned and women also experience sexualised comments and harassment in online game situations.

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And because of this, women are often experiencing big pressure.

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Sort of. You need to prove that you can play as well, or even better than the men men in your team or in the other team.

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And in this respect, the the all female tournament, they can help relieve these pressures and allow women the space where they can just enjoy playing.

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There's yet one other thing now that I have been listening to your your experiences.

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So there's one thing I would like to talk to you.

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From how I see it is that it seems to be quite common that when we talk about diversity issues in games and in tech at large,

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we think mostly about women. Also,

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many of the campaigns that are targeted specifically at getting more women to study coding or getting women interested in the STEM field in science,

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technology and mathematics and engineering. For example, the limit order programme Women Who Code Programme,

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which is powered by the Finnish Software and E-Business Association, is one well-known initiative from this this field.

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However, I've been wondering and I would like to ask you that how do the challenges of other marginalised groups appear?

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Because on the other hand, there has been an increased interest in the society and in research to address marginalisation through intersectionality,

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where we try to understand inequalities sort of as a result of multiple intersecting identity categories.

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Let's say, for example, how does it feel to be a non-binary immigrant in this in this space?

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So do you have any thoughts on this? How do the challenges of different marginalised groups appear in gaming cultures and all this?

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First of all, recognised in the companies?

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This is a very important notion, and I personally hate when diversity related conversations revolve around gender alone.

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There's a lot of different aspects to it, whether it's sexuality, ethnicity or socioeconomic status and a bunch of other factors too.

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I don't think companies in my field recognise this as well as they should, although working with people from various different cultures,

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for example, is very familiar to many game studios and tech companies as well.

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But what we also hear is that the culture isn't us inclusive and welcoming as it could be.

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I mean, make it so nice on switching the conversation to finish might alienate a lot of people.

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As for gaming culture, there are still plenty of racism, for example,

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so we still need to do a lot of work to improve that culture for everyone, not just women alone.

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I think this is a really good question, too, and because FGF is juror towards gender minorities, do we need to think about this topic a lot?

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I, for example, as a president of FGF, gets a lot of questions or cooperation requests, but the questions we see are almost every time about women.

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I usually want to remind that we are an association that is also Jared,

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what's gender minorities, and we want to include their experiences to the topic as well.

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In my opinion, this thing alone describes a lot in equalities faced by gender minorities in the gaming culture.

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Also, I want to do my research on topics, especially when speakers, beats or something is coming up and related to this,

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I've noticed there isn't any research data about gender minorities and gaming, and I really feel that you do need more data about that topic.

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Also, the experiences in the gaming culture may differ quite a lot between women and minorities,

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with people thought of gender minorities, that discrimination in gaming may be, for example, related to their voice in voice jets.

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People may also just assume their gender wrongly.

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Games can be described as a fateful for gender minorities, and some games are thought to be inferior because of that.

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However, there are also some similarities with women and gender minorities as well.

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For example, gaming skills are often westernised if you don't fit the profile, a proper gaming profile which is often a young adult or sexual male.

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Yes, indeed. I really recognise these features from from the research and how it observes this old game of culture and the industry,

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it is the ideal gamer is often portrayed as a young man,

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as you said here and then also an ideal games industry worker is often imagined as a young man who

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can devote a lot of your time to to also build your skills outside the office hours and so on.

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But there is actually a minor shift going on not only in our society, but also in the research,

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because what I notice is that more and more researchers are starting to pay attention to,

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to addressing the different challenges that these minority groups are experiencing.

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So I think that in the next two years, we will definitely have more information about also other minorities than women.

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And what else? Well, you both emphasised that there is perhaps this need to to be more sensitive to these factors that

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alienate people with different backgrounds and to sort of to pay attention to their unique experiences.

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And as I said, I think that this is the direction where we are definitely going towards and I think maybe to wrap up,

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I think this has been a really engaging discussion and it's been very good to learn

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about the things that are being done in the field in your voluntary organisations.

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But before we leave, I was wondering if if we could maybe hear one or two key takeaways for those

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individuals and organisations who really want to do their part in supporting diversity?

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How would you maybe advise them based on your own experiences?

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From my view as a comms consultant, you should start with inclusion and internal processes,

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external communications and actions come after your current employees feel included unheard.

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Diversity is not a PR stunt or a tool for marketing, and it should touch the entire organisation.

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So make sure your internal affairs are in order before communicating all that to external audiences.

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Well, I could actually continue a little bit about what I said earlier about toxic behaviour in games.

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In my opinion, it is important to intervene if you encounter a situation where someone is treated badly in games.

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So I think it's also the responsibility of the whole community and also each in the individual.

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It always helps if the person doesn't have to be in the situation alone and that there

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is someone who is telling the toxic person that it's not OK to behave like that.

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Also, it is always very important to report toxic behaviour in games.

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In my opinion, for organisations, it is important to show that everyone is welcome just as they are.

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That's why I think we need more diverse characters in games, for example, and also overall work in the games industry for organisations.

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I think it is also extremely important to intervene if something happens.

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We also need to raise overall knowledge about gaming, and we need to show that gamers are a really diverse group.

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Thank you again, and thank you, Marion, that great piece of advice from both of you.

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And I must say that it's been really wonderful to hear your experiences,

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and I think you have offered us many interesting viewpoints to how we can think of diversity and inclusion.

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On the one hand, what both of you have emphasised is that it requires commitment from companies and organisations to

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really critically examine their own cultures and engage in this organisation wide change initiative.

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However, as you showed, there are also smaller possibilities to make an impact.

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Whether you are a member of a gaming community or if you are working for a game studio,

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you can always look for the opportunities to make a change in the everyday interactions,

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such as what you suggested earlier, paying attention to the type of language we use,

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the types of jokes that we tell, or the types of images we choose when we represent our company.

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I think it's time for us to wrap up. So thank you so much again and Marianne there for joining us today.

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Thanks. This was really nice. Thank you.

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I think this was a great discussion. Thank you.

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And to our listeners, I hope that you have enjoyed listening to this podcast.

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I would like to add that this podcast is accompanied by a short blog where we have

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included additional readings regarding diversity and inclusion in games industry,

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as well as links to some of the non-profit organisations and diversity initiatives, particularly in the Finnish context.

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In case you are interested in learning more. But for now, thanks for staying with us.