1 00:00:04,590 --> 00:00:11,730 Sustainability unwrapped a conversation new podcast about responsibility, ethics, inequalities, 2 00:00:11,730 --> 00:00:22,320 climate change and other challenges of our times where science needs practise to think about awards and how to make our society more sustainable. 3 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:31,110 One podcast at a time This is sustainability podcast episode on Sustainable Investing. 4 00:00:31,110 --> 00:00:32,730 My name is Hannah Sealable. 5 00:00:32,730 --> 00:00:42,900 I'm Associate Professor of Accounting here at Honkin School of Economics, and today I have very interesting guest Magnus Alfredsson from Sweden. 6 00:00:42,900 --> 00:00:54,950 You are, you are managing proprietor's fund there in Sweden, and I hope we have so interesting debate on sustainable investing today. 7 00:00:54,950 --> 00:00:59,730 Good to you. Magnus, tell something about your background. 8 00:00:59,730 --> 00:01:07,440 Okay. My name is Magnus Alfredson. I am 44 years old from Sweden, as you mentioned. 9 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:14,310 I've been working within private banking and asset management for 15 years in Sweden and abroad. 10 00:01:14,310 --> 00:01:20,880 And but I'm not doing that anymore because I got fed up with selling things that I never would buy myself. 11 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:32,140 And as mentioned, I am the Manager Operators fund. I've been that for three and a half years and I'm very happy to do this. 12 00:01:32,140 --> 00:01:39,160 That sounds interesting and very honest description also regarding your background. 13 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:47,260 So when we talk about sustainable investing, it might be good to talk about sustainability as a phenomenon first, 14 00:01:47,260 --> 00:01:52,120 because different people have different understanding what is sustainable. 15 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:57,970 So we do not have that sort of universal definition that everyone would agree. 16 00:01:57,970 --> 00:02:02,650 So what what sustainability means to you personally? 17 00:02:02,650 --> 00:02:09,940 I guess that you have been thinking about that so much during your career. 18 00:02:09,940 --> 00:02:22,770 I would say that that is to be and to live within our planetary boundaries, quick and easy response. 19 00:02:22,770 --> 00:02:32,400 So could you elaborate that a bit more, what does it what does it mean, like usually in the sustainability debate, 20 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:39,330 we talk about the needs of the future generation on long term and so on. 21 00:02:39,330 --> 00:02:45,390 So. We know that we need to do changes we need. 22 00:02:45,390 --> 00:02:54,750 We need to change it. We have to stop pumping carbon dioxide into the atmosphere and we have a window. 23 00:02:54,750 --> 00:03:00,000 It's not too wide, but we have a couple of years to stop doing that. 24 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:07,560 And that is the one big thing that we need to do what every regular people can do. 25 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:13,380 They can probably see what they're eating and see if they can change a little. 26 00:03:13,380 --> 00:03:26,100 On on on that side, we have techniques that will reduce the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere that is just beginning to to be developed now, 27 00:03:26,100 --> 00:03:32,790 like carbon capture and storage. We're talking about planting more trees and so on. 28 00:03:32,790 --> 00:03:37,980 But if we're talking about what sustainability is, I would say more. 29 00:03:37,980 --> 00:03:40,890 It's it's a mindset. 30 00:03:40,890 --> 00:03:53,640 It's something that you have in the back of your mind and that you can add to every discussion, every decision that you make and its value. 31 00:03:53,640 --> 00:04:00,590 Of course, as so. Yeah, I think that if if that wraps it up. 32 00:04:00,590 --> 00:04:07,430 Thanks, I think this is very well defined when we talk about sustainable investing, 33 00:04:07,430 --> 00:04:14,900 then we usually describe that with the later ESG, environmental, social and governance. 34 00:04:14,900 --> 00:04:19,550 So which of these letters is the most important for you? 35 00:04:19,550 --> 00:04:25,820 Is that environment like like you described where the much about climate change, et cetera. 36 00:04:25,820 --> 00:04:35,870 So you see your motivation oriented most towards environmental effects are do you consider all these aspects? 37 00:04:35,870 --> 00:04:40,640 Well, I consider all of them. But environmental is the focus. 38 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,870 The main the topic of the fund? Yeah, yeah. 39 00:04:44,870 --> 00:04:54,510 So yeah, definitely the most important. Yeah, and I think that drives financial sector changes at the moment. 40 00:04:54,510 --> 00:05:08,310 So how one can then evaluate what is really sustainable or green when we talk about sustainability and sustainable products and financial products? 41 00:05:08,310 --> 00:05:16,200 That's a tricky question, of course. But if we're looking at what is sustainable, what is green? 42 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:22,290 My trick is to look at the specific product service or company or whatever it is that I'm 43 00:05:22,290 --> 00:05:30,630 looking at and then try to peel off the various layers of marketing in your own preconceptions. 44 00:05:30,630 --> 00:05:37,230 And then I would say that you get a pretty good feel for if it's sustainable or if it's not. 45 00:05:37,230 --> 00:05:44,990 Or at least you can compare, is this more sustainable than something else? 46 00:05:44,990 --> 00:05:51,950 Yes. And then I think this sustainable investing as a phenomenon, it has increased a lot. 47 00:05:51,950 --> 00:06:02,390 And now there is a debate whether that is already mainstream on financial markets and in Nordics, it seems to be very, very popular in Europe. 48 00:06:02,390 --> 00:06:06,920 Yes. And then the rest of the world is is waking up. 49 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:15,770 Let's say so. But how do you see the phenomenon of sustainable investing as a whole? 50 00:06:15,770 --> 00:06:19,430 I see it as an very important eye opener. 51 00:06:19,430 --> 00:06:32,600 Um, because it doesn't really matter if you and me, if we own a oil company or not, if we sell the shares, someone else will buy it. 52 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:36,050 But there is a different piece in this. 53 00:06:36,050 --> 00:06:45,830 It's extremely important that we do this and that we care as a movement, as a signal, as the voice of the collective. 54 00:06:45,830 --> 00:06:54,740 We cannot just leave this part of the industry and say, no, it's it's going to it's going to work, work out in some way on its own. 55 00:06:54,740 --> 00:07:05,210 So this is just another aspect, as I said before, that we have to have with this in in the decisions that we make. 56 00:07:05,210 --> 00:07:11,750 Can I interpret this also in a way that the only excluding pet companies is not the solution, 57 00:07:11,750 --> 00:07:20,480 but we we need to bring the chains and all companies we need to change all companies? 58 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:30,860 Definitely. It's going to be interested in 10 15 years to see what companies that can actually go through this change. 59 00:07:30,860 --> 00:07:42,860 I think we will see a lot of new companies that is built on a sustainable thought that will take market shares in the coming years. 60 00:07:42,860 --> 00:07:47,450 And I also think that we will see a couple of the dinosaurs go down. 61 00:07:47,450 --> 00:07:58,310 Yeah, and it seems that financial markets, they really have taken a huge role now regarding this change toward sustainability. 62 00:07:58,310 --> 00:08:03,470 Have you observed any differences between Sweden and other countries? 63 00:08:03,470 --> 00:08:05,540 You know, Swedish market very well, 64 00:08:05,540 --> 00:08:16,130 and I I guess that you are very well aware of what was happening in other countries and maybe you have reflected this situation to Finland, 65 00:08:16,130 --> 00:08:21,590 for example. I am not very good at the Finnish. What's going on in Finland? 66 00:08:21,590 --> 00:08:32,360 But I can say in Sweden, my experience is that green and sustainable funds has historically been sold as extra flavour funds. 67 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:38,180 If I can put it that way, banks and fund companies, they figured out that if you take irregular funding, 68 00:08:38,180 --> 00:08:43,640 you add a greenish colour to the fact sheet then and add the word transition green, 69 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,810 sustainable or something like that in the name then then you can charge more. 70 00:08:47,810 --> 00:09:00,200 But I think that is historically, I think we are at a crossroads now where banks actually step up and do so much more than just painted green. 71 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:10,370 Yeah. And I think that customers are also aware of costs and and they really analyse that side as well. 72 00:09:10,370 --> 00:09:10,770 Yeah, 73 00:09:10,770 --> 00:09:23,900 the problem at the moment seems to be that we do not have that sort of universal rules to define what our sustainable funds and which funds are not. 74 00:09:23,900 --> 00:09:34,220 Maybe we will talk about that a bit later on. But can you observe any differences or similarities between institutional and private investors? 75 00:09:34,220 --> 00:09:45,820 Do they behave in a similar way? Or is this green investing, sustainable investing only marketing tool for private investors? 76 00:09:45,820 --> 00:09:50,030 And what we've seen from potatoes from from our perspective, 77 00:09:50,030 --> 00:09:59,140 the last three and a half years is that the first ones where the private investors, the early adopters. 78 00:09:59,140 --> 00:10:09,340 Then mainstream, as you mentioned, became more and more mainstream, and then we had a big boom after the American election last year. 79 00:10:09,340 --> 00:10:20,050 I think that more of the institutional capital will move into the green sustainable transition area. 80 00:10:20,050 --> 00:10:28,850 But. Often, I think this this money is quite conservative, so they are not the early adopters. 81 00:10:28,850 --> 00:10:36,730 If we're talking about pension funds and foundations and so on, but I think the move will happen. 82 00:10:36,730 --> 00:10:42,310 Yeah, I think here in Finland, institutional investors, they have been very proactive. 83 00:10:42,310 --> 00:10:53,080 I mean, pension companies and banks and statistics actually show that more and more money is flowing towards sustainable funds, 84 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:57,700 and it seems to be quite a global phenomenon. 85 00:10:57,700 --> 00:11:05,210 I sincerely think that sustainable companies will grow faster than at other companies to coming 15 years. 86 00:11:05,210 --> 00:11:10,870 So if we're striving for the one and a half or the two percent increase in temperature, 87 00:11:10,870 --> 00:11:17,080 then the definitely the the bit on the sustainable companies should be a no brainer. 88 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:29,440 Yeah. And I also think that it has become much more easy to invest in sustainable funds and high ESG companies because we as customers, 89 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:35,500 we have much more information nowadays than we had, let's say, five years ago. 90 00:11:35,500 --> 00:11:44,020 So we are better informed on unsustainability of investment targets. 91 00:11:44,020 --> 00:12:01,540 So when we talk about private investors and possibilities of private investors, how can they evaluate and consider whether their fund is sustainable? 92 00:12:01,540 --> 00:12:11,770 Well, I would say it's a jungle out there. It's a jungle of certifications and labels, and everyone, of course, wants to be better than others. 93 00:12:11,770 --> 00:12:19,240 For operators side, we've chosen not to have any of the traditional certifications simply because there's a cost to it, 94 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:30,100 and we don't feel that we need a certification to reach a higher standard, if I put it that way. 95 00:12:30,100 --> 00:12:36,480 But back to the question. How do we know if a fund is sustainable? 96 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:44,130 I usually say that if you take a look at the five largest shares or the holdings in a fund. 97 00:12:44,130 --> 00:12:51,930 And if those are more or less the same shares or holdings that you find in the regular fund or in the index, 98 00:12:51,930 --> 00:12:57,780 then you probably shouldn't buy the fund, at least not for sustainable reasons. 99 00:12:57,780 --> 00:13:07,410 OK, so your first step is to have a look on biggest holdings and consider whether they are sustainable. 100 00:13:07,410 --> 00:13:12,080 Yes. And also stick to the low fees. Yes. 101 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:24,680 OK. Yeah. How about the strategy of the fund or how how could you evaluate that like like the description of the fund, 102 00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:28,940 like, that's the first one that the private customer will see. 103 00:13:28,940 --> 00:13:37,250 What would be your tricks are is there any key word to find out how how you compare various funds, you mean? 104 00:13:37,250 --> 00:13:42,170 Yeah. Well, comparing various funds is a little tricky. 105 00:13:42,170 --> 00:13:52,040 That's like comparing rocks. You cannot compare a global fund to a finish fund or a mixed fund to a 100 percent share fund. 106 00:13:52,040 --> 00:14:01,690 So. One way to go about is to look at the risk and take all of the funds that you you're interested that has a risk level, 107 00:14:01,690 --> 00:14:10,390 let's say five out of seven and then take a look at what has happened the last five years because one month doesn't matter. 108 00:14:10,390 --> 00:14:14,140 Three months doesn't really matter. One year hardly matters. 109 00:14:14,140 --> 00:14:23,230 If you want to get a a view, then you probably have to look at least five years and focus on, 110 00:14:23,230 --> 00:14:30,280 as I said before buying funds, Willow Low shares have a long investment horizon and save on a monthly basis. 111 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:38,040 Good tips. OK. I think that's a good that's quite a good strategy, the beginning. 112 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:51,230 So. There is a lot of debate whether the sort of sustainable investing either to stocks or fonts is profitable. 113 00:14:51,230 --> 00:14:58,040 So what do you think, how the sustainability, orientation and profits are related? 114 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:08,760 And there are no conflicts between sustainability and profit. To to reach it, the climate goals that it has been set, we have to invest heavily, 115 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:14,650 heavily in a couple of areas, like renewable energy being one of them. 116 00:15:14,650 --> 00:15:21,760 To increase the energy from wind in Sweden, we have to build wind farms, there are about 15 different companies. 117 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:28,030 Maybe that can do so, meaning that we have to place two or do we one of these companies? 118 00:15:28,030 --> 00:15:37,200 And then same thing with electric cars, same things with alternative to meat and dairy and so on. 119 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:43,860 That is why I think that sustainable investment is the rational choice. 120 00:15:43,860 --> 00:15:51,210 Yeah, and I can I can confirm also that from my academic side that more and more academic 121 00:15:51,210 --> 00:15:57,930 evidence actually show that sustainable investing is quite a good choice. 122 00:15:57,930 --> 00:16:05,280 And of course, it depends on how sustainability is is defined in these research projects. 123 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:12,600 But if we consider high ESG companies based on their ESG performance, 124 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:23,020 it seems that especially now during COVID 19, these high ESG companies have performed fairly well. 125 00:16:23,020 --> 00:16:29,910 How how far back do you usually look when you historically usually? 126 00:16:29,910 --> 00:16:39,570 Usually academics have quite a long horizon like a big gate, and we can see annual differences. 127 00:16:39,570 --> 00:16:48,990 And it seems that that sustainable investing can be a rational choice, and it actually must be because otherwise, 128 00:16:48,990 --> 00:16:59,220 I think a huge institutional investors wouldn't be able to invest pension money, for example, if that wouldn't be profitable at all. 129 00:16:59,220 --> 00:17:09,180 You know, I think it's going to be very interesting in 15 years when we take a look at this through the ups and the downs and so on. 130 00:17:09,180 --> 00:17:13,650 But yeah, let's let's see in 15 years. Yeah. 131 00:17:13,650 --> 00:17:25,920 Personally, I'm I'm interested to see that sort of similar companies which have not that sort of official ESG ratings yet and see how they perform, 132 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:33,780 because then that's based on my own evaluation on the sustainability strategy and activities, 133 00:17:33,780 --> 00:17:43,140 what they do because they do not have that sort of good reporting or our external ESG ratios and for example, 134 00:17:43,140 --> 00:17:52,410 these companies that have been just listed in stock exchanges. I think from there we can hopefully find some good examples. 135 00:17:52,410 --> 00:18:00,810 And later on. OK, so we have been talking quite as much about the sustainability and sustainable investing, 136 00:18:00,810 --> 00:18:08,400 but in the beginning you said that you have history in in other company selling, 137 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:17,340 selling some products that you wouldn't buy yourself and maybe that motivated you to create your own fund. 138 00:18:17,340 --> 00:18:24,090 Could you tell a bit more about your fund? What is it all about? 139 00:18:24,090 --> 00:18:32,040 It is a mixed fund, meaning that it's 80 percent shares and 20 percent interest bearing or bonds. 140 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:39,510 It was started three and a half years ago, and it has gone up by approximately 135 percent since then. 141 00:18:39,510 --> 00:18:46,490 It's a risk five out of seven and the price is zero point sixty five per year. 142 00:18:46,490 --> 00:18:52,770 A couple of the biggest holdings vistas, which is large in wind turbines. 143 00:18:52,770 --> 00:18:59,790 Swedish neighbour heat energy efficiency company Skoltech, builds solar farms around the world. 144 00:18:59,790 --> 00:19:07,100 Brookfield Renewable invest in a number of renewable energy assets and. 145 00:19:07,100 --> 00:19:16,580 And of course, there are 70 different companies, so I'm not going to sit here and read all of them, but no one companies Tesla, it will lose. 146 00:19:16,580 --> 00:19:22,400 No, no brainer. Well, to mention a couple of them. 147 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:29,660 OK, then that sounds fascinating. And I recognised some, some familiar companies from your list. 148 00:19:29,660 --> 00:19:36,170 So could we go a step back and talk about your motivation? 149 00:19:36,170 --> 00:19:43,940 So how you were so fascinated about this? 150 00:19:43,940 --> 00:19:47,420 So I think it's quite a it might be. 151 00:19:47,420 --> 00:19:51,890 It seems a bit risky to start your own business and create fund. 152 00:19:51,890 --> 00:20:02,630 It would be maybe a bit more risk averse to stay in the office and manage its funds invested by other other people. 153 00:20:02,630 --> 00:20:08,240 So what was your motivation to start your own fund? 154 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:15,620 As I said, I didn't like what many of the banks was doing, you know, painting everything green. 155 00:20:15,620 --> 00:20:27,060 So. I wanted to to find one solution, one fund that was good, cheap, 156 00:20:27,060 --> 00:20:34,080 sustainable and that would fit would be a good alternative to most people's fund portfolios. 157 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:40,140 I wouldn't have something easy, something cheap and something actually that I would buy myself. 158 00:20:40,140 --> 00:20:44,880 So that was the model, the framework that I set up. 159 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:53,310 And then there were a couple of years of hard work before the fund was started, but I'm very glad I did it. 160 00:20:53,310 --> 00:20:59,040 It has been the most exciting, job wise period in my life. 161 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:06,810 I really love what I'm doing. It's nice to to be able to to do this to to have a conversation with people like you. 162 00:21:06,810 --> 00:21:14,910 And I'm getting contacted by people in Sweden and and other countries on a daily basis. 163 00:21:14,910 --> 00:21:20,580 And I really, really like this part of what I'm doing. Sounds fascinating. 164 00:21:20,580 --> 00:21:29,850 So what kind of people then invest in your fund is that for private or institutional or both? 165 00:21:29,850 --> 00:21:37,050 Or how does it work? We don't really have a very good insight. 166 00:21:37,050 --> 00:21:45,060 We we have a couple of numbers that we can look at and go and calculate. 167 00:21:45,060 --> 00:21:51,120 But it is approximately 60000 regular people, if I put it that way, 168 00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:58,980 and they have on average 20000 Swedish kroner or two thousand euros invested in the fund per person. 169 00:21:58,980 --> 00:22:08,490 So I would say that the regular person that put money in this kind of fund is someone they they save money for their retirement. 170 00:22:08,490 --> 00:22:14,100 If they have kids, it's usually long term, which we really like. 171 00:22:14,100 --> 00:22:23,070 Of course, a fund is not a very good tool if you're short, short, if you have a shorter period investment period. 172 00:22:23,070 --> 00:22:33,060 So that's that's what we know about the Swedish market, and we started selling the fund in Finland a couple of months ago, 173 00:22:33,060 --> 00:22:41,430 and I don't really have the numbers there, unfortunately. So even I could invest, how how how can I do it? 174 00:22:41,430 --> 00:22:45,840 Where do I find your fund in Finland right now? 175 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:53,700 It's inordinate, but no has started to sell the fund in Sweden about two months ago or so. 176 00:22:53,700 --> 00:22:58,470 I hope that Norway, I will start selling it in Finland, too. 177 00:22:58,470 --> 00:23:08,860 OK, no, it is. It's very well known here in Finland, and that's the largest provider amongst private private investors and of course, everyone. 178 00:23:08,860 --> 00:23:16,740 No, not as well. So it's a bit quite quite easy to invest in your fund. 179 00:23:16,740 --> 00:23:20,620 Also here in Finland. OK. 180 00:23:20,620 --> 00:23:30,960 So. If we talk shortly about the future of sustainability and sustainable investing, 181 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:36,710 what do you think about the current situation of sustainable investing? 182 00:23:36,710 --> 00:23:42,050 Can you see any any insights, how that will develop in the future? 183 00:23:42,050 --> 00:23:42,140 Well, 184 00:23:42,140 --> 00:23:53,600 right now we see that a lot of things has happened during the last couple of years and and you said that there is some sort of window for the future. 185 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:59,210 Yeah, I really hope. I think and I hope that the banks that are selling the various products will 186 00:23:59,210 --> 00:24:08,200 take a bigger responsibility because they are in many ways did the gatekeeper. 187 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:15,700 I hope. We don't get more of, let's say, confusing labelling and certifications. 188 00:24:15,700 --> 00:24:16,870 I think we need more. 189 00:24:16,870 --> 00:24:28,810 I think we need to stick to more basic maybe the three different levels that the EU taxonomy has given us the article the let's see article six, 190 00:24:28,810 --> 00:24:34,150 eight and nine, which is a certain limit of what you're doing. 191 00:24:34,150 --> 00:24:38,830 I've written here. We don't care. We take it. We care a little and we care a lot. 192 00:24:38,830 --> 00:24:45,970 It's not that way. But there are three levels, at least, yes. 193 00:24:45,970 --> 00:24:58,960 So EU regulation seems to be quite a heavy, heavy package, and then it should give better information, more comparable information to customers. 194 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:07,690 Which funds are are either light green or dark green or have no ESG orientation at all. 195 00:25:07,690 --> 00:25:12,220 And then the customer should be able to combat this. 196 00:25:12,220 --> 00:25:20,380 And this is where I'm saying that. I think that it would be good if the banks would take a bigger responsibility because right now, 197 00:25:20,380 --> 00:25:26,050 sometimes you can take a look at the fund and there are so much information. 198 00:25:26,050 --> 00:25:33,220 And if you're just a regular investor, I can imagine that you just take a look at it and say, Well, this is too much, 199 00:25:33,220 --> 00:25:43,150 and you may maybe, maybe you don't even start saving or you just set to take something that you recognise from before. 200 00:25:43,150 --> 00:25:50,050 But simpler processes and simpler information would be a good way, I think. 201 00:25:50,050 --> 00:25:55,540 Yes, I think the problem is that and now anyone can claim that they are sustainable, 202 00:25:55,540 --> 00:26:07,150 but then it's it's quite a big decision to private investor then to evaluate which of these funds really is sustainable. 203 00:26:07,150 --> 00:26:16,540 So let's let's hope that the future EU taxonomy and regulation will will clear up this these rules. 204 00:26:16,540 --> 00:26:24,740 So. Maybe at the end, what kind of tips you would like to give to a private investor? 205 00:26:24,740 --> 00:26:33,200 For example, our university students who are very in the beginning of their investment career are then maybe to 206 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:43,460 alumni who have already been investing but are wondering how to invest in more sustainable way. 207 00:26:43,460 --> 00:26:53,870 I would say remember the basics, remember low fees, well diversified portfolio set up the monthly transfer into the into the fund. 208 00:26:53,870 --> 00:27:01,610 And yes, I realise when I'm saying that that this is not very exciting and this is not where you're going to get your kicks, 209 00:27:01,610 --> 00:27:07,010 but it is where you will find the money you set aside when you need it. 210 00:27:07,010 --> 00:27:12,780 So if you're looking for risks, go ride a bike without a helmet. 211 00:27:12,780 --> 00:27:24,180 I think these are wise words. Many thanks, Agnes, for your visit here in our Sustainability Unwrapped podcast. 212 00:27:24,180 --> 00:27:31,770 And I really hope that you have a successful fund also in the future. 213 00:27:31,770 --> 00:27:54,684 Thank you very much.