1
00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:11,740
Sustainability unwrapped a conversation new podcast about responsibility, ethics, inequalities,

2
00:00:11,740 --> 00:00:22,330
climate change and other challenges of our times where science needs practise to think about evolve and how to make our society more sustainable.

3
00:00:22,330 --> 00:00:32,350
One podcast at a time. Welcome everyone to this episode of the Sustainability Hambrecht podcast.

4
00:00:32,350 --> 00:00:36,750
And today we're going to talk about lean thinking and justice systems.

5
00:00:36,750 --> 00:00:45,120
My name is Isabel Stoker and I'm a doctoral student at Honkin in the subject of supply chain management and social responsibility.

6
00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:50,040
Access to Justice is part of Sustainable Development Goal Number 16,

7
00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:55,890
which is about promoting peaceful and inclusive societies for sustainable development,

8
00:00:55,890 --> 00:01:04,950
providing access to justice for all and building effective, accountable and inclusive institutions at all levels.

9
00:01:04,950 --> 00:01:10,710
Access to justice is also included in the rights protected under the European Convention

10
00:01:10,710 --> 00:01:16,540
of Human Rights and the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union.

11
00:01:16,540 --> 00:01:24,160
Lean thinking, on the other hand, is a philosophy stemming from manufacturing environments, especially the car manufacturer Toyota,

12
00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:31,750
but it has in the past decades been applied in all types of environments, including services and public sector environments.

13
00:01:31,750 --> 00:01:36,100
It is all it is about increasing value and removing waste,

14
00:01:36,100 --> 00:01:45,380
enabling flow through the processes or value streams and striving for continuous improvement.

15
00:01:45,380 --> 00:01:49,070
There is a saying that justice prolonged is justice denied,

16
00:01:49,070 --> 00:01:54,530
and as many European countries struggle with prolonged case handling and their justice systems,

17
00:01:54,530 --> 00:02:02,260
lean thinking seems to be a promising ideology for rethinking processes and practises for improvement.

18
00:02:02,260 --> 00:02:05,500
Lean thinking and justice is also the current topic in Finland,

19
00:02:05,500 --> 00:02:11,140
as the Ministry of Justice has appointed a statute draughting committee to evaluate how to make

20
00:02:11,140 --> 00:02:18,670
the criminal procedure more efficient with council consideration of the principles of lean.

21
00:02:18,670 --> 00:02:31,750
I have with me today two guests to discuss this issue or this topic, so Assistant Professor Ana Lucia Martins from the Business School in Lisbon,

22
00:02:31,750 --> 00:02:38,600
as well as Professor Multi-Tool Banon at the University of Eastern Finland.

23
00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:48,170
And I would now like to ask you to introduce yourselves a bit to the audience, so maybe Anna could start.

24
00:02:48,170 --> 00:02:52,880
Thank you, Isobel. Good afternoon to all of you.

25
00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:57,470
A brief introduction of myself. It's always difficult to talk about oneself.

26
00:02:57,470 --> 00:03:04,910
So what can I say? I'm a PhD in management specialising in operations management, and for many years now,

27
00:03:04,910 --> 00:03:11,060
I've dedicated part of my research focus to management of judicial systems,

28
00:03:11,060 --> 00:03:17,210
more specifically to the application of lean management to judicial processes.

29
00:03:17,210 --> 00:03:22,310
I'm also a teacher of operations management specifically aimed at the services area,

30
00:03:22,310 --> 00:03:33,020
but sometimes I also go to other areas and I also currently serve as the best thing for teaching and innovation and business school in Lisbon,

31
00:03:33,020 --> 00:03:37,100
Portugal. There's so much to please, can we?

32
00:03:37,100 --> 00:03:46,640
Yes. And let the thought of an end professor of Criminal Law and Criminal Procedure in the University

33
00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:55,940
of Eastern Finland and have also been working as a prosecutor and a chief prosecutor,

34
00:03:55,940 --> 00:04:04,190
and also be lecturing in police academy and other universities,

35
00:04:04,190 --> 00:04:18,290
and specialised especially in criminal law and criminal procedure law and also in procedure in administrative courts,

36
00:04:18,290 --> 00:04:24,760
and have written report to the Ministry of Justice of England.

37
00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:31,080
Of how to be in principles could be applied in in criminal procedure.

38
00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:41,860
The idea of applying lean thinking, including the procedure, it's quite a new idea in Finland also.

39
00:04:41,860 --> 00:04:56,720
It has been always the aim of the procedure to be as fast as possible, so always we have.

40
00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:05,310
Tried to avoid delays in proceedings, but maybe.

41
00:05:05,310 --> 00:05:11,280
We have not succeeded as well as the usual two panel.

42
00:05:11,280 --> 00:05:12,120
Succeeded,

43
00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:30,150
so that's that's the reason why we are now reflecting how the principles would be could be applied in criminal proceedings so that the proceedings.

44
00:05:30,150 --> 00:05:42,320
Would be more effective, compared. The history of the proceedings.

45
00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:46,030
Yes, so very, very good.

46
00:05:46,030 --> 00:05:53,450
Mark, you are bringing us already to the first first question that I had in mind that we would discuss,

47
00:05:53,450 --> 00:06:00,380
namely how lean thinking matters in justice and and as you said,

48
00:06:00,380 --> 00:06:09,570
it has has been for a long time kind of on the agenda to to to make it as fast as possible,

49
00:06:09,570 --> 00:06:23,990
but still but still taking into consideration consideration all the other things that need to be need to be protected during the procedure.

50
00:06:23,990 --> 00:06:33,590
But do you want to reflect a bit more on on how wholly and thinking matters in justice from your perspective as a professor in law?

51
00:06:33,590 --> 00:06:41,560
We had priorities and also in the Constitution, finished the Constitution, according to its.

52
00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:49,600
Everyone has a right for. Trial.

53
00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:58,610
Without undue delay and also in the Criminal Investigation Act, so to act.

54
00:06:58,610 --> 00:07:13,270
Displayed three instigation, there is Chapter three, six and 11, according to which the criminal investigation shall be conducted without unduly led.

55
00:07:13,270 --> 00:07:21,340
So I think we have the legislation in that legislation.

56
00:07:21,340 --> 00:07:29,230
Talk about road delays, but the practise is somehow.

57
00:07:29,230 --> 00:07:37,850
And in fact, it's a device because it seems that it's a matter of resources.

58
00:07:37,850 --> 00:07:48,810
How to the resources. Most effective way, but the reality is that there is never enough money,

59
00:07:48,810 --> 00:08:06,340
so so we have changed our way of working and we have some tools also in law necessary to investigate every case the police has.

60
00:08:06,340 --> 00:08:23,510
Right to waive investigation, and also the prosecutor has a right to base investigation, but it's just a little bit tricky.

61
00:08:23,510 --> 00:08:38,120
Way of handling is this issue because in some police districts and police raids, maybe 40 per cent of all cases.

62
00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:52,370
So they are investigating. Just maybe 50 or 60 per cent of all cases, and if you think about the.

63
00:08:52,370 --> 00:08:58,720
A person who has suffered and harm.

64
00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:04,550
I love I cried. And it's not.

65
00:09:04,550 --> 00:09:11,670
Fair work for him or her to police. That's not investigate.

66
00:09:11,670 --> 00:09:17,050
To the case and and that that's that's the problem now.

67
00:09:17,050 --> 00:09:32,270
It's quite a big problem. I think it's not the problem only in Finland, but it's may a problem in other countries.

68
00:09:32,270 --> 00:09:38,930
And as I see it, it's it's.

69
00:09:38,930 --> 00:09:51,190
The question is about knowledge will and implementation may be there is not

70
00:09:51,190 --> 00:10:00,280
enough knowledge about the police about the criminal law criminal procedure.

71
00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:14,200
We need a professional, more professional training government for training for police, prosecutors and judges and also defence lawyers.

72
00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:20,470
And this that's today we can.

73
00:10:20,470 --> 00:10:31,930
Gain more knowledge about how we could do a job more and more effective and and also there is a will.

74
00:10:31,930 --> 00:10:42,070
I think I have introduced the interview and interviews with churches, defence lawyers, prosecutors and police.

75
00:10:42,070 --> 00:10:52,380
And I think the reason why it could be for more effective investigation, but to implement implementation,

76
00:10:52,380 --> 00:11:04,390
it's it's it's not so easy to to implement these clean principles and procedures, too, because there is also the security.

77
00:11:04,390 --> 00:11:18,630
Everyone has a right for fair trial and and the course that they are a little bit iffy.

78
00:11:18,630 --> 00:11:22,730
I don't think it's effective.

79
00:11:22,730 --> 00:11:39,720
Effectiveness and fair trial, maybe they are in a very controversial goals, but we have to get these goals to get around and I think that's the.

80
00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:45,090
And also it's very important that the prosecution.

81
00:11:45,090 --> 00:11:51,600
Service is very active in criminal investigation, so that.

82
00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:58,030
The investigation is appreciating step by step, but simultaneously,

83
00:11:58,030 --> 00:12:06,340
so the prosecutor and the police, they look together and also feel it defence lawyers.

84
00:12:06,340 --> 00:12:15,920
We have to take them. Also, we must have them involved also.

85
00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:25,160
At the pace of pre-trial investigation, I think that's the way it would.

86
00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:38,390
Take the criminal procedure more effective, so beat out, so it's not.

87
00:12:38,390 --> 00:12:46,370
To abandon about of the principle of fair trial.

88
00:12:46,370 --> 00:12:55,160
BP can be effective and at the same time guarantee.

89
00:12:55,160 --> 00:13:02,250
Fair trial for everybody. I think that's we have changed our way of thinking.

90
00:13:02,250 --> 00:13:09,640
Not, not at all. The law is, I think according to law, it is possible.

91
00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:17,980
To apply leading and thinking in criminal procedure, but we have to change our attitudes.

92
00:13:17,980 --> 00:13:30,240
How do. We should that soldiers believe they can gain a fair result without undue delays.

93
00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:32,220
That's my point of view. Thank you.

94
00:13:32,220 --> 00:13:44,810
Must do so are not as you have your background in operations management, how do you see how lean thinking matters in justice?

95
00:13:44,810 --> 00:13:49,210
Oh, thank you, Isabel, it's a very, very interesting question.

96
00:13:49,210 --> 00:13:57,790
It's even more interesting that the two of us matinee today here are looking at the same thing from different backgrounds.

97
00:13:57,790 --> 00:14:04,360
So my background in operations management makes me look into the justice system from a different lens.

98
00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:12,970
Nonetheless, there are some topics that are in common with the view of Professor Toivonen, which are very interesting.

99
00:14:12,970 --> 00:14:20,350
It mentioned the lack of resources, and in fact, it doesn't matter how much money we put into the system.

100
00:14:20,350 --> 00:14:23,860
There will always be scarcity of resources.

101
00:14:23,860 --> 00:14:33,760
What we need is to organise them and find a way to better use them in by making a better use of these resources.

102
00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:44,980
We can, in fact, allow the system to move faster and go towards this fairness of providing justice to the society,

103
00:14:44,980 --> 00:14:51,820
not only to the parties involved, but to society and an entirety.

104
00:14:51,820 --> 00:14:56,260
Professor Toivonen is experiences more on the criminal perspective.

105
00:14:56,260 --> 00:15:03,130
My experience in my research of almost 20 years is more focussed on civil procedures,

106
00:15:03,130 --> 00:15:10,900
but it's very interesting to to hear two things as I can identify very similar perspectives.

107
00:15:10,900 --> 00:15:16,480
The need to make the cases flow fast in the procedures.

108
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:24,070
The need to have the resources involved to make sure that justice is served and we can

109
00:15:24,070 --> 00:15:31,150
find the best of the best case possible for the population is the and that in fact,

110
00:15:31,150 --> 00:15:35,830
access to justice is is assured for everyone.

111
00:15:35,830 --> 00:15:42,460
Yes, I agree with both of you. So I think we have gone through at the same time.

112
00:15:42,460 --> 00:15:48,490
We have also taken up what the benefits are of applying lean thinking and justice that

113
00:15:48,490 --> 00:15:57,670
it can reduce the the time that that case is spent in in the different processes,

114
00:15:57,670 --> 00:16:07,210
at least as we see it. There is this opportunity or possibility, but I do kind of.

115
00:16:07,210 --> 00:16:16,960
But still processing or handling the cases in a profound way and use the resources better.

116
00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:21,880
But what do you see as the challenges of applying lean thinking in justice?

117
00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:27,550
And maybe here we can start with the AMA's view on on this.

118
00:16:27,550 --> 00:16:32,230
Oh, thank you, Isabel. In fact, let me just make the breach here.

119
00:16:32,230 --> 00:16:40,090
It's a very interesting question also that you are asking when we look at live thinking what we see,

120
00:16:40,090 --> 00:16:48,730
we can see a set of tools, we can see principles that we use or can use to manage resources.

121
00:16:48,730 --> 00:16:58,000
In fact, Lean can bring a lot of benefits. But along with these benefits, there are some challenges on the perspective of the benefits.

122
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,830
In fact, I totally agree with you and you mentioned that it will take less time,

123
00:17:02,830 --> 00:17:14,230
but it will take less time because there are redundancies that can be removed from the processes that are wastes can be removed from the processes.

124
00:17:14,230 --> 00:17:26,500
And by doing that, we need less money invested in the entire system to provide similar or even better level of quality of justice.

125
00:17:26,500 --> 00:17:35,650
In fact, when we mention these perspective of more quality of the service that is provided, this is missing from the operations management.

126
00:17:35,650 --> 00:17:45,070
When we see that justice, when we have justice that is produced closer to the time of the disruption of that problem,

127
00:17:45,070 --> 00:17:56,500
the conflict that emerged in society. Obviously, we will let these consequences not last as long time as it would in the past.

128
00:17:56,500 --> 00:18:03,610
So we are providing a better service to society. So overall, we are not only reducing the time.

129
00:18:03,610 --> 00:18:08,350
We are also increasing the quality of the service that is provided to society.

130
00:18:08,350 --> 00:18:12,310
And by doing this, we are not increasing the resources we need.

131
00:18:12,310 --> 00:18:19,390
We are actually using them better and eventually even use less resources.

132
00:18:19,390 --> 00:18:23,770
But this is not easy to implement or to perceive.

133
00:18:23,770 --> 00:18:28,000
And I also agree with you, Isabel, when you mention that there are challenges.

134
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:32,650
In fact, I do see that there might be some challenges.

135
00:18:32,650 --> 00:18:36,940
We are all used of doing things the way we used to.

136
00:18:36,940 --> 00:18:43,940
It's very common to find similar systems in different countries or procedures that have.

137
00:18:43,940 --> 00:18:57,110
The same overall doing persons are resistant to change, but it's not only persons organisations also because not only lean thinking,

138
00:18:57,110 --> 00:19:02,330
it will change the way we think about the processes and who the customers are.

139
00:19:02,330 --> 00:19:16,250
We also need to adjust how we do things, how we organise the entire supply chain that will allow the service, the legal service, to be provided.

140
00:19:16,250 --> 00:19:27,080
So I would point as the main challenge to these dealings is in fact overcome resistance to change.

141
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:33,360
So, Marty, what what do you see as the challenges of applying lean thinking injustice justice?

142
00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:40,310
Yes, actually, I agree because as I previously said.

143
00:19:40,310 --> 00:19:57,550
The law itself. It's enough to Crescenzi question is about how we implement the law and order first, the suit.

144
00:19:57,550 --> 00:20:04,410
Have consensus. What does it change mean, how?

145
00:20:04,410 --> 00:20:18,230
But I don't. Needs to change, and it's the question is about the concept of.

146
00:20:18,230 --> 00:20:30,840
Procedural procedural change, as I said, everyone has to reflect his or her role in his chain and how it.

147
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:42,990
His or her. You know, that's how it affects the desert of Idaho.

148
00:20:42,990 --> 00:20:50,560
In the industry chain, so the police has to reflect.

149
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:58,670
What is the point of view of the prosecution and also the prosecution has.

150
00:20:58,670 --> 00:21:12,670
It has to take. Had your case is handled in in in in court, so two cases have to be.

151
00:21:12,670 --> 00:21:19,020
More profoundly. Prepared because before main hearing.

152
00:21:19,020 --> 00:21:25,410
And that's they'll be good. Avoid.

153
00:21:25,410 --> 00:21:31,900
Delays, and it's as I said, it's.

154
00:21:31,900 --> 00:21:38,730
Question is about the persons and organisations attempting to enter assistance.

155
00:21:38,730 --> 00:21:53,220
Both on the personal side and organisation's side, and we have, as I said, we have to change our way of thinking.

156
00:21:53,220 --> 00:22:01,280
What is the concept of proceeds, the proceeds from the chain and ended once was.

157
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:13,210
Let's look at how the roles of the police and prosecution and the courts and defence lawyers affect in this.

158
00:22:13,210 --> 00:22:17,680
Chain as a whole. I think that that's my point of view.

159
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:25,000
I certainly agree with you and taking this kind of whole chain perspective is

160
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:31,510
is something I find very interesting and also very interesting death that you,

161
00:22:31,510 --> 00:22:37,300
Marty, has Hastert as you have kind of a different background than I do,

162
00:22:37,300 --> 00:22:47,530
and I have been kind of thinking about supply chains if applied in the justice system.

163
00:22:47,530 --> 00:22:58,630
So but we can continue. And of course, now we have been talking about the efficiency and effectiveness and delays and such.

164
00:22:58,630 --> 00:23:11,270
But how do you say, how would you say that lean thinking relate to the sustained sustainable development goal of access to justice?

165
00:23:11,270 --> 00:23:17,890
And maybe I can ask Canada to just state your point of view on this.

166
00:23:17,890 --> 00:23:30,130
Thank you, Isabel. It's a very interesting question, once again, access to justice, if it's not too short, we will not have equality.

167
00:23:30,130 --> 00:23:39,310
And when we talk about access to justice, we are talking about different things is not only about having persons being able

168
00:23:39,310 --> 00:23:48,670
to access courts law resources that will allow them to solve some disputes.

169
00:23:48,670 --> 00:24:04,270
It's also about being able to a fair trial to fair set of proceedings and also making sure that justice is served on time.

170
00:24:04,270 --> 00:24:10,910
Then we can in fact contribute to these development goals.

171
00:24:10,910 --> 00:24:15,640
You are focussing on these golden number six.

172
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,630
I would mention these as the best goal number 16.

173
00:24:19,630 --> 00:24:30,010
If it takes too long to produce a result, it can be in terms of the legal aspect, very well produced.

174
00:24:30,010 --> 00:24:41,800
But in terms of society, justice delayed is in fact just it's not served because sometimes when it's finally serving so late,

175
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:50,560
it will no longer produce the desired results and the suffering of the parties involved will be huge.

176
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:58,870
So Lynn can in fact contribute a little under the context of the justice system,

177
00:24:58,870 --> 00:25:06,370
can in fact contribute to the Sustainable Development Goals by increasing efficiency

178
00:25:06,370 --> 00:25:13,000
throughout the process so that the effectiveness of delivering justice is assured,

179
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:22,020
and these access to justice is in fact guaranteed to the overall population.

180
00:25:22,020 --> 00:25:29,250
Yes, and Martha, I give the word to you as well. Yes.

181
00:25:29,250 --> 00:25:39,340
I don't have very much to add to what I said, but I think that's the role of a fair trial.

182
00:25:39,340 --> 00:25:50,220
It contains all of. The principle of avoiding and undue delays, so.

183
00:25:50,220 --> 00:26:00,370
It's really a rule. We have to, according to law, be we have to avoid.

184
00:26:00,370 --> 00:26:06,850
Delays. So it's it's a rule.

185
00:26:06,850 --> 00:26:21,280
That's just not. As I understand it, it's also according to law, it's illegal to hold.

186
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:25,420
I agree with the both of you and I as a legal rule,

187
00:26:25,420 --> 00:26:33,430
it is something that the states and especially to those who have signed the European Convention on Human Rights Day,

188
00:26:33,430 --> 00:26:43,810
are they have to to make sure that the rights of all the of the people are protected.

189
00:26:43,810 --> 00:26:50,580
But I would also want to add that lean thinking the traditional.

190
00:26:50,580 --> 00:27:01,260
Or the traditional view on the philosophy of lean thinking also actually emphasise that the idea that the definition of of what is valuable,

191
00:27:01,260 --> 00:27:09,870
what is value should be. Done from the customer's point of view.

192
00:27:09,870 --> 00:27:16,580
And then if kind of having this in mind, one can also kind of.

193
00:27:16,580 --> 00:27:26,090
Include so many other aspects of of the legal system and ensuring access to justice like, for example,

194
00:27:26,090 --> 00:27:33,320
making their processes more understandable for the parties who are involved in a legal case, both, for example,

195
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:43,970
in terms of using their language in the process and to also making clear the process steps and what the

196
00:27:43,970 --> 00:27:54,710
parties are expected to do so that actually the flow of the case through the system can be made more smooth.

197
00:27:54,710 --> 00:28:09,180
So I think there is so many different aspects that the lean thinking could bring up when applied in the justice system.

198
00:28:09,180 --> 00:28:21,810
So, but I think we can now also discuss a bit what the key takeaways are from from the discussion that we have had now today.

199
00:28:21,810 --> 00:28:29,460
And maybe the first point could, uh, that could be stated or said here is that despite the buzz of the three of us coming

200
00:28:29,460 --> 00:28:36,510
from different fields which are law and then operations and supply chain management,

201
00:28:36,510 --> 00:28:42,450
when we are talking about this, we are using a similar language and similar terms.

202
00:28:42,450 --> 00:28:48,330
And we are we are in agreement in a way.

203
00:28:48,330 --> 00:28:53,850
But what what are the key takeaways that you would want to add here?

204
00:28:53,850 --> 00:28:58,050
Maybe I could start Isabel if you'll allow me.

205
00:28:58,050 --> 00:29:04,140
Well, I think that this was a very fruitful conversation or discussion, if you prefer.

206
00:29:04,140 --> 00:29:17,940
I would say that what we can take from here today is that clean can help justice to be faster, to produce results faster.

207
00:29:17,940 --> 00:29:25,850
And by doing that, allowing also more fairness and reduced costs for the entire system.

208
00:29:25,850 --> 00:29:37,240
And in fact, lean can be perceived as a very positive way of thinking that can be introduced in these systems,

209
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:44,310
but the resistance to change need to be addressed and need to be addressed very seriously.

210
00:29:44,310 --> 00:29:48,990
It needs to have the engagement of the leaders of these organisations.

211
00:29:48,990 --> 00:29:53,700
Otherwise, it will never work. It will never actually produce results.

212
00:29:53,700 --> 00:30:03,420
It needs to have the engagement of these leaders. It needs to lead to the engagement of leaders at different levels of the organisation.

213
00:30:03,420 --> 00:30:14,160
But also, as you were mentioning, it needs also to be spread to the different organisations that are almost like satellites.

214
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:23,580
But they are all together, end up being part of the system and support the production of justice.

215
00:30:23,580 --> 00:30:29,190
I do see that there is still a long journey to overcome, but well,

216
00:30:29,190 --> 00:30:36,450
every long journey needs to start with some small steps and those steps are being taken.

217
00:30:36,450 --> 00:30:44,370
And Finland, in fact, from my perspective, when I'm Portuguese, I can say that without any problem,

218
00:30:44,370 --> 00:30:53,700
what I see is that in Finland, some steps are being made solid steps and the future can be, in fact, quite quite bright.

219
00:30:53,700 --> 00:30:58,830
The overall is that in fact, lean can improve the access to justice and provide more fairness.

220
00:30:58,830 --> 00:31:05,010
And in fact, provide also a strong contribution to the sustainable development goal.

221
00:31:05,010 --> 00:31:13,890
Yes, it's relevant to adopt lean thinking, as I see it, for efficiency and effectiveness.

222
00:31:13,890 --> 00:31:23,880
And I said there is a long road ahead, but we had taken some steps and take a more step by step.

223
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:32,290
And if I summarise it so that lean, it can contribute.

224
00:31:32,290 --> 00:31:42,010
To something more sinister, caught in society at the end, and it provides a way how things actually are, and maybe it's.

225
00:31:42,010 --> 00:31:52,090
A little bit different viewpoint. And may be used before, but.

226
00:31:52,090 --> 00:31:58,960
As I said in the beginning, it because all the being.

227
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:07,650
And a goal to be as fast as possible in proceedings, if you.

228
00:32:07,650 --> 00:32:20,940
Keep that in mind. We are only chasing our way of thinking, and that's the way we have to to proceed.

229
00:32:20,940 --> 00:32:26,760
I agree with you and us lean thinking it is a way of thinking and it is a philosophy,

230
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:37,260
but it also comes with a broad range range of different tools and ways of of

231
00:32:37,260 --> 00:32:48,510
implementing and seeing so so that it has the benefit that there's such a broad.

232
00:32:48,510 --> 00:33:00,480
It has a broad application area and lots of there's lots of experience already available of how it can be implemented and used in different settings.

233
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:12,870
So. So there I agree with you that I think that there is it has that there's lots of promise of.

234
00:33:12,870 --> 00:33:25,260
It is a promising approach to to really make justice better in in not only in Finland, but in other countries as well.

235
00:33:25,260 --> 00:33:31,000
So with this, I, we have now discussed.

236
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:43,600
Lean thinking in the justice system and from trial, and it's both its benefits and challenges and how it relates to access to justice.

237
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:54,160
Yes, so thank you both to the guests and also to all the listeners who tuned in to this podcast episode.

238
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:59,350
Well, on my behalf, I would also like to thank Heineken for inviting me.

239
00:33:59,350 --> 00:34:06,740
Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to be here. Yes, I for my part, I also say thank you,

240
00:34:06,740 --> 00:34:18,760
and it was really a pleasure to be with you and talk to you about this very, very interesting and important issue.

241
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:39,828
Thank.